Comments/help with a stud 8 hand

[Iron]

Hi! This is my FIRST post here. I'm relatively new to Stud 8, but have been playing for a few weeks and doing reasonably well at the $1/2, $2/4 and $3/$6 games. I was hoping to get some comments about how I played the following hand as I have been going through it myself and am not sure what I should have done differently.

I'm thinking I should have just called on the river to start off, seeing as seat 4 had the potential 7 lo (which he ended up winning lo with). Prior to that I knew I had at least the best lo and was jamming the pot to make the others pay for their last card... is that correct here?

Any comments appreciated and thanks in advance.

$3/$6 Stud 8, 6 handed

Dealt to Iron [4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Seat 2: X, X, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 3: X, X, T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 4: X, X, 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 5: X, X, 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Seat 6: X, X, 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Seat 4 brings it in for $1
Seat 5 folds
Seat 6 calls
Iron raises to $3
Seat 2 calls
Seat 3 folds
Seat 4 calls
Seat 6 calls

Iron [4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 2: X, X, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 4: X, X, 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 6: X, X, 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Seat 2 checks
Seat 4 checks
Seat 6 checks
Iron bets $3
Everyone calls


Iron [4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 2: X, X, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 4: X, X, 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 6: X, X, 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Seats 2, 4 and 6 check
Iron bets $6
Everyone calls

Iron [4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 2: X, X, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 4: X, X, 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Seat 6: X, X, 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Seat 4 checks
Seat 6 bets $6
Iron raises $6 to $12
Seat 2 folds
Seat 4 calls
Seat 6 raises $6
Iron raises $6 (capped)
Seat 4 and 6 call

Iron [4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif [4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]
Seat 4: X, X, 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, X
Seat 6: X, X, 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, X

Seat 4 bets
Seat 6 calls
Iron raises
Seat 4 raises
Seat 6 raises (capped)
Iron and Seat 4 call

Showdown
Pot size $195

Seat 4 shows: 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif for a lo 7, 5, 4, 3, 2 to win lo and a flush to win hi
Seat 6 shows : Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T /images/graemlins/club.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, K /images/graemlins/club.gif for a hi straight 6 to Ten
Iron has trip 4s and a 8, 6, 4, 3, 2 lo

[RayGarlington]

Well, you seem to have the aggression thing down pretty well.

[PoorLawyer]

Seems to me like you put a lot of money into the pot with a weak hand.
I don't see how you could have known you had the best low: On 5th, seat 2 has an A and 3 on board so if he started with any 3 lower than 8 then you are behind him with your 3468...
On 6th there is 4 to a straight on the board and a pair higher than your 4s, so you can't be too enthused about your high chances, and a possible low in seat 2 that looks better than yours. This didn't seem like a spot to raise to me.
I play 1/2 though mostly where you can't get people out very easily...

[jon_1van]

hmmm

-I don't think you should have bet on 5th (I'd like a 2nd opinion on this)
-jamming on 6th is right
-raising the river is really bad because you can't beat a straight and both players could have been drawing to a better low than you.

-I don't like the raise on 3rd. I might have been acceptable if you upcards was a 3 or 4 and your 8 was down.

[Hauser_III]

I wouldn't like the raise on 3rd even if the 8 was in the hole; there's too many other low cards up, so any deception value is negated by the odds that there are at least two better starting lows out there than the 348. I'd fold on 3rd.

[jon_1van]

I'm still learning stud8...but I think I have a decent handle on it.

What do you think of the other points I made in the response?

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still learning stud8...but I think I have a decent handle on it.

What do you think of the other points I made in the response?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain your raise 6th reasoning

[Andy B]

Third street is a fold. Your low is dubious, and the Eight is showing. Your high chances are poor. You don't really have a straight possibility, and a Five and a Seven are out. Your best card to pair is the Eight, and one of those is out. The two-flush has value, even with a heart out, but not enough to swing this to a call. With an Ace left to act behind you, you may not be able to even limp in and see what happens. Raising was probably your worst option.

On fourth, you have the only four-card low, so betting is good. On fifth, even though you've paired, you're still in decent shape. I'd bet too, but sixth street could become scary.

On sixth, seat 2 could have you beaten, but you can represent a very strong hand and drive him out by raising, so I think raising is the way to go. Once you've gotten him out, you have the current nuts, and may have outs for high, so capping is in order.

When seat 6 jams sixth street, you should know that your trip Fours probably aren't any good for high. When you raise, you're laying 2:1 that your hand is best for low, and either of your opponents could have you beaten at this point. Seat 4 was calling all those raises with something wasn't he? You can only call the river.

In short, you were too aggressive on third and seventh, but you played the other streets well, in my opinion.

[jon_1van]

He has the best possible low right now (not true).

After you asked this I realized the the AJ38 was still in...so I guess the first raise was bad (but after the above hand folds the second raise was good)...see response to AndyB in this thread

[jon_1van]

About the 1st raise on 6th ::

I initally said that jaming 6th was good. But I said this when I didn't realize that he could have been beat before this guy folded. And now I'm not so sure.

Having this guy in the pot is handcuffing my brain right now.

You say raising into the possible better low is a good idea because you are trying to push him out.

But by doing this aren't you risking alot of money? Because if it is raised back to you aren't you pretty well commited to an ugly situation. Option 1. you can again raise to cap the betting after the probable better low cold called 2 BB. Or you can call the raise and scream "I don't actually have a made low right now" and thus induce a bet from the probable low because after you just call he could suspect that his low is better.

But I guess if you just called and the other low bets and then it is 2 BB back to you because its getting jammed you can dump the hand here right?

I understand that you can't always assume the worst but this definetly seems like an ugly situation to be in (although folding the other low makes you very very happy)


So my question is :: What do you do if the other low cold calls 2 and the bettor 3 bets??

[Andy B]

At this point, there is a certain amount of money in the pot. It is worth making a play to protect what is rightfully Iron's. Yes, it can be scary. That's what makes this game so much fun. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Assuming that seat 2 is paying attention, which is probably a stretch, look at it from his standpoint. Iron raised coming in and has been catching good cards and blasting the whole time. With that Eight in the door, there is a good chance that Iron started with an Ace and a wheel card in the hole, in which case the 2 seat is drawing slim or perhaps dead for half the pot. It isn't worth it for him to call two bets for half of that pot.

If you just call, seat 2 raises, and the other guy comes over the top, it's hard to know what to do. You have some chance to draw out, but seat 2 also has a re-draw, which may and may not be better than yours. You can avoid this situation by raising yourself. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If seat 2 calls two cold and the high hand comes over the top, I'd just call and hope I hit. Seat 2 obviously isn't going anywhere in that case, and Iron is probably behind.

[jon_1van]

Does your play change if this were 20-40 ?
(ie you could assume a much more aware opponent)

Just Curious

[Iron]

Thanks for all the comments so far. I'm still rereading some of the posts and digesting the commentary, but it has been very helpful.

I'll save you a little grief over the raise on seat 2 by telling you this... my notes on this player are that he's in virtually every pot, generally playing high only or chasing a low after starting with hands one low and one high card in the pocket. I guess he ignores or doesn't look at the chat, because two players at the table were berating his play all night, so I had a little bit of doubt that he was playing a solid hand from the get go. Then again, as they say in NLHE "even terrible players get pocket aces sometimes" so I definitely was very glad when he folded.

[jon_1van]

then I say "good raise"

[Andy B]

My usual games these days are $30/60 and $40/80. The raise is even better in a higher-limit game, because players actually lay hands down at that level.