Bet Amount

Following hand occurred a few nights ago in a No Limit Holdem tournment. We are past the rebuy period. The blinds are still relatively small at $25/50. I am in the BB. All fold to the button ($900 stack) who raises to $150. The button is aggressive and has been stealing from us all night and it has been irritating the SB (stack $3000+). He raises to $600. I hold AQ in the BB. I reraise to $1300 (my stack $2500). Button folds and SB calls. Flop comes A56 and I am out of the tournment as SB holds 66. He told me later that while put me on a big ace he would have folded to a larger bet.


Results aside, was it a mistake not to raise a larger amount or go all in? I felt the raise I made was sufficent for him to fold most hands yet did not commit me totally. One note is that I considered just calling to be a weak play because of the high probability that both would fold.

I normally muck AQ to a raise and a re-raise. You have to know that you are facing AK or some type of pair from the re-raiser.


Based on your stack size raising all-in is the play I would make. By raising to 1300, you are asking him to add 700 to a pot that has 2150 in it. It would be wrong for him to fold with those odds unless he was raising with crap.


Ken Poklitar

While I do make exceptions, my general rule is if the bet/raise takes over half my stack, I go all-in instead. Most of my exceptions involve spots where I want to get called, BTW.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Greg,


I was reading a recent article from Bob Ciaffone at cardplayer.com today.


"At no-limit, never open for more than a third of your stack. Put it all in and pray (or open for a smaller amount than a third)."


Assume you have 900 chips.


If you raise to 300 and get 1 caller, the pot will roughly be 600 and you will have a pot sized amount of 600 left to bet out on the flop.


If you raise to 450 and get 1 caller, the pot will roughly be 900 and you will have a 1/2 pot sized amount of 450 to bet out on the flop.


So either you ask your opponent to call 600 into a 1200 size pot or call 450 into a 1350 size pot. It seems that you will called more often all things being equal using the 1/2 general rule.


Ken Poklitar

Ken - Normally I too avoid AQ (at least at this stage of the tournment), but I felt this was a special situation where neither raiser was likely to have a premium hand. My problem was that I tried to have it both ways and did not fully commit to the hand.


I was prepared to muck to a reraise and also would have mucked had the flop missed and the SB bet into me in the belief that $1100 would still be enough to play effectively at that blind level. Had the SB checked and the flop missed me, I must admit that I would bet the remainder in an attempt to win the pot and wanted that bet had to be fairly large. Based on pot size, it appears that I needed to make a larger bet to avoid a call and given my stack size the proper bet should have been all in. Thanks to you and Greg for your advise.

Please reword your last paragraph. I think.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Ken,


That's generally true but when the button raises and the SB re-raises that's quite a specific situation and if you think the SB thinks a) the button is stealing and b) he can either re-steal or re-raise for value with a reasonable number of hands smaller than AQ, then you can go for this one.


Once you do I would just instinctively go all-in, it feels right.


Andy.

Wow after re-reading my post, I can see why you were confused!


"At no-limit, never open for more than a third of your stack. Put it all in and pray (or open for a smaller amount than a third)." Bob Ciaffone (cardplayer.com).


The issue at hand is when to go all-in vs just making a standard sized raise. You have stated in the past that if you are going to put more then 1/2 your stack in then you should just go all-in. Ciaffone states that you should actually go all-in if you are going to put more than 1/3 of your stack in.


Assume you have 800. Blinds are 50-100. Assuming you like to raise to 3xBB, a standard opening bet would be 300.


1) Fossilman would bet 300 leaving himself 500 for a flop bet. Assuming 1 caller there would be 50+100+300+300=750 in the pot when/if you bet the flop.


2) Ciaffone would go all-in since 300 is over 1/3 of his stack (or bet a smaller amount which is less then 1/3).


Which approach is better or do you think either way is fine?


It seems to me that Ciaffone would get called less often pre-flop but when he is called, he may be up against a bigger hand. Because of that he may have to adjust his raising standards to be a bit tighter then you.


Hopefully this is more readable /images/smile.gif


Ken Poklitar

I must have been drinking (too much diet coke) on this whole thread. I don't remember if I realized it was a button raise.


Oh well,


Ken Poklitar

Both are probably fine. The advantage of my cutoff point is that when I bet 3/8th of my stack or the like (where Bob would have gone all-in), I have enough left to make a substantial bet on the flop. Even if it's less than the pot, maybe only half the pot, it is substantial. And, if the caller missed the flop, they may often release now, which is often to my benfit.


You never know when they're gonna call your raise with something like A8, then fold on the flop when they miss. When you have KQ, this is a very good thing. ;-)


Plus, looking at your hypothetical, I simply hate to risk 800 to win 150, which is what happens for Bob. If I raise to 300 (and I might only go 250, depending upon the situation), and the tight player reraises, I can get away from the hand. Likewise, if called, and the flop comes all wrong for me, I can get away and still have enough chips left to make a real raise next hand.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

nt