Poker pages hand

About 40 minutes into the Poker pages beta tournament, blinds were about 100-200, I have close to the 10,000 we started with and am in the big blind with A5 offsuit. There are 5 limpers and the small blind also calls so we see the flop 7 handed. The flop is A 8 5. The small blind bets about 2000. What should I do? I have just been moved to the table and have no idea how anyone plays. I have about $1250 more than the small blind but there are bigger stacks still in behind me.

I would make it 5000 to go which is a 3k raise. The SB bet is a slightly bigger then a pot sized bet. Your 2 pair is vulnerable but most likely the best at this point.


Ken Poklitar

I'd muck it.


Clearly you are in a spot where you can win without taking a huge risk, given that this guy is betting 2000 into the field with a pot of 1400. While he might not have you beat, he could, and there are 5 players behind you who could have flopped a set or top 2 pair. If there were only zero or 1 players behind you, I'd play here, but with 5 others, I fold.


If he's being at all reasonable, he has to have a hand to bet into 6 people. And, as you said, you don't know. Watch this one play out, and get a better idea for next time. Given your stack size and the blinds, you've got time to pass here, even if it is a slightly +EV situation.


Now, if you'd rather get a big stack quick or be done with it quick, then go for it now.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Interesting Greg,


Would your move be the same if hero had A8 instead of A5?


(Which is, of course, better than top and bottom pair but also less likely to get counterfeited should a pair appear on the board. Like if you have the A5 with a A85 flop but the board pairs the 8 then you are screwed.)


I'm pretty sure your answer is yes but I'm wondering if this would be a consideration or not. Also what about if you had AJ? Still fold?


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

I did what ohKanada suggested in order to get rid of any other bigger aces that may be behind me. Of course in hind sight, bigger aces would probably hang around especially if they were also a bigger stack. With the turn and river being face cards, I would have lost to them anyway. Besides this fact, Greg also points out the small blinds has to have a hand.


When the betting got back to the small blind, he went all in and I called. He had 88 for midle trips and took the pot.


I tend to act too fast online since clicking a button is easier than counting chips. I have to learn to slow down and think.

ALL IN period.

Bad luck, but more than 50% of the time you are the man on the flop, act it and crush him.....just didnt happen this time...oops ;-)

Automuck. Top-bottom pair is not that strong, a running pair or an 8 kills you, and there are simply too many people to act behind you. This guy must have something if he is betting into this many people; if not, he is going to be rudely awakened by someone with a hand behind him. This spot is too dangerous to mix it up for all your chips.

A8 (top 2 pair) is much better than top and bottom pair. The only real hand that top and bottom beats is bottom 2 pair. Any 1 pair hand or worse should not be putting in all their money when there are this many people seeing the flop, and the money is still quite deep compared to the blinds. With top 2, you now beat bottom 2 and top and bottom 2. You still lose to all the sets.


Another not insignificant difference. Here, our hero had AA55, and the winner had 888. Our hero had 2 outs to win. If it had been AA88 vs. 555, he would have had 4 outs, twice as likely to suck out. With top 2 pair vs. a set, 60% of the time you have 4 outs, 20% you have 2 outs, and 20% you have no outs (other than runner-runner quads). With top and bottom 2 vs. a set, it is 80% that you have 2 outs, and 20% that you have no outs.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Having read all the posts it is interesting to see both going all-in and folding being stated as automatic !


Loath as I am to disagree with Greg :-), in a real tournament yes I would be treading very carefully but on Pokerpages - screw it, half the players have no idea what they are doing. Shove it all in and at least if you lose you can find something better to do :-).


Andy.

Its a PP beta test....who knows! My first PP beta i watched as several people pushed $10K plus and up to all in with any face cards and any Ace.....sometimes even less. If they caught any part of the flop and had any chips left those would go in too. It was hilarious to watch.....scary to play.

Both Andy and win4win mentioned that this is a pokerpages tourney. When I recommended raising with top/bottom pair I will admit that the fact that it was pokerpages crossed my mind.


If this happened early in the WSOP final event, would I be so proud to raise to 5k. It is hard to say. Should the advice be the same in the 2 events. Probably not. The opponents obviously make a big difference. And perhaps this is one of the reasons maybe folding is okay. This player was just moved to a new table.


I still believe that 2 pair (even top/bottom) is still pretty solid facing 4 other players. I think it is much better then a coin toss even though we know our hero lost badly in this case but if he won would the hand have been posted? Against A8 or a set the hero is obviously in trouble. Against a big ace our hero is a 3-1 favorite.


Ken Poklitar