A lowly pair of 5s: Part 1

[MLG]

Its the first 3 minutes of a $100 MTT on stars and I get black 5s in middle position. I limp and LP bumps it to 80. Button calls, BB calls and I call. 4 to the flop witht 320 in the pot. Now comes the fun part, flop is 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. BB checks, now what?

[soxfan70]

My first thought here is too check. My reasoning may be a bit weak, but the rason I would check is that I would HATE a raise here, but wouldn't mind calling a bet from the PF raiser, and see if one of my 8 (6 safe) outs come on the turn. What do you think of the logic?

[SossMan]

C/C up to PSB.

With the plan of maybe pushing on a card < T.

[MLG]

Does it matter whether the PSB comes from the PFRer of the CCer (note this CC is different from Soss's CC).

[UMTerp]

I'm guessing this didn't end well, because I saw you went out about five minutes in last night.

Ugh, that's tough. You obviously hate being reraised all-in if you make a pot-sized bet here. The other two fives are no longer outs for you unless you get all aces to lay down on the flop, which isn't likely. Aces are good cards for you, though chances are there are one or two already accounted for in your opponent's hands. I guess the only cards you really like seeing on the turn here is a 6.

This is probably weak, but I think I'm check-calling up to about half the pot to try to spike an ace or a six, and check-folding to any bet higher than that. Take your 1420 chips and wait for a better spot. You didn't flop the 5 you were looking for, and although this flop looks good at first glance, it's a pretty easy hand to go broke on.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter whether the PSB comes from the PFRer of the CCer (note this CC is different from Soss's CC).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh...cold caller...took me a second...

I think it makes a big difference. I would much rather call the PSB from the PFR than the PFCCer since I would still have the PFR left to act behind me when I call. I would be closing the action vs. the PFR.

If there are calls in between, then I'm just playing for OESD value, and I will abort my turn semibluff push.

[MLG]

I have to say, I think there's a lot more going on here then you guys have touched on. The fact that this is 4 handed changes things a bunch in my opinion.

[Pat Southern]

I'm surprised nobody has said checkraise allin, if the bet comes from the PFR. As long as you're not against AA or 66 you have 10 outs if you're behind.

I dont know what I'd do if the preflop raiser bets and somebody comes over the top though.

[gergery]

I’m checking, maybe calling a small bet, and have an eye toward folding.
1. chances are decent you are beat by a higher pair from one of the others
2. even if you’re not beat now, overcards or spades could kill you
3. You only have 6 cards you’re happy to see (non-spade A/6)
4. If you hit one of your 6 cards the board looks scary to your opponent, and they can still have flush redraws
5. How much folding equity you have is unclear, as larger pairs and any two spades might well stick around

--Greg

[zaxx19]

4 handed im checking and calling perhaps a moderate raise...
Im not a huge fan on drawing early or making huge semi-bluffs against multiple opponents. I also am leery of drawing to a straight here with a flush possibly being made again especially with multiple opponents in the pot and this being early. Wow i just think I talked myself into just check folding here too anything but a minimum raise...

[MLG]

Wow, I dont usually find myself this far off from what everybody else is thinking so maybe I'm totally wrong here, but I think checking here is the wrong play. My hand is one that hates being in a multiway pot at this point, and I really don't think I want to see it checked around here. There are plenty of hands that I am ahead of here that benefit from seeing the turn for free (especially hands that the BB could be holding). Plus, given that there are 4 players it is much less likely that the preflop raiser is going to bet his missed overcards. Also, by betting I will have a fairly good idea of where I stand in relation to the field, since on this board there are very few slow-playable hands. Am I completely off the wall here....

[ZootMurph]

Several things here.

1) EARLY in the tournament.
2) 4 handed
3) The hand MAY be winning, BUT there are so many draws out there that maybe half the deck will beat you.

Because it's early and you are probably NOT the favorite, I don't want to throw a lot of money into this pot. I put your chances of winning at 30%, which is good enough to make a call of a small bet. But I'm not calling a pot sized bet for 6 outs (non spade Aces and 6s) and 5 redraw cards (5s - 10 outs to full house, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif - open ended straight flush draw, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif - 1 out to straight flush) where I MAY be ahead but someone probably has a bigger pocket pair than I do.

You've got plenty of time, check and fold to a big bet. Call a small bet or hope all the players are calling, making the pot big enough to be worth playing in. This may seem weak, but it just doesn't seem to be the right time to make a stand on possibly having the best hand or having a real good draw for a large portion of your stack, when you will get better chances later, probably, where you have a better situation.

I don't know who said it, but someone said "You can't win a tournament on one hand, unless it is the last hand."

[SossMan]

let's see part 2 where you bet out, the PFR raises all in, you call because you are PCd and he spikes his 4 outer on the river and you say cards happen.

[MLG]

first of all, the results are part 3, second of all it was a 3 outer, third of all why will nobody answer my freakin question about the merits of betting out here!! Sheesh somebody might think you had better things to do then be on call 24/7 for my poker playing conundrums.

[theBruiser500]

"Wow, I dont usually find myself this far off from what everybody else is thinking so maybe I'm totally wrong here, but I think checking here is the wrong play. My hand is one that hates being in a multiway pot at this point, and I really don't think I want to see it checked around here."

I disagree completely. The touranment is early and the pot isn't that big for you to really want to protect it too much. Coupled with the fact that there is a very large chance you have the worst hand, also you have a draw, and by betting you might bet yourself right off it. I check, and consider folding, calling, or checkraising all in depending on the action.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
first of all, the results are part 3, second of all it was a 3 outer, third of all why will nobody answer my freakin question about the merits of betting out here!! Sheesh somebody might think you had better things to do then be on call 24/7 for my poker playing conundrums.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't beat yourself up for going broke in an unraised pot...it happens.

[UMTerp]

Another thought crossed my mind about this hand too - chances are one of your opponents has an overpair to you. Should you bet out, a hand like 88-TT would probably come along on the flop. The thing is though, that half of your outs (the aces) would kill any action from this player. That negates a lot of your implied odds here. Plus, the spade outs may not be good either. The way I see it, the only cards that could come on the turn where you can potentially take someone's stack on this hand without putting your chips in as a dog are the 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of hands that I am ahead of here that benefit from seeing the turn for free (especially hands that the BB could be holding).

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but there are also no blanks to hit that you want to see, besides your 6 outs, as every other card could help someone. And there are plenty of hands you are behind to (higher pairs), even with (higher suited connectors in spades), or only moderately ahead of (Ax).

You also have somewhat limited ability to get paid off if you do hit as the hand you’re representing is obvious to everyone, and it won’t be the nuts as you have a 1 card straight so its even possible you could still lose.

[ QUOTE ]

Plus, given that there are 4 players it is much less likely that the preflop raiser is going to bet his missed overcards. Also, by betting I will have a fairly good idea of where I stand in relation to the field, since on this board there are very few slow-playable hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

PFR is less likely to bet overcards, but anyone with JJ-66 who limped is likely to stay, and PFR could have larger pair. And I don’t think you will have a better idea of where you stand, as anyone with suited spade connectors is likely to stay. Anyone with Ax where A is spade will stay, and loose players with Ax not spades could stay thinking gutshot+2 overs. So while there are very few slowplayable hands, there are very many calling hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Am I completely off the wall here....

[/ QUOTE ]
No, cause they could still have missed, or get scared off the board. But there are enough factors here to make me think this is not a particularly attractive situation for your hand.

Just my 2 cents

--Greg

[berya]

I'm leading out for about 200 9 out of 10 times here. After that it would depend on who did what.

[MLG]

Well I led out for about 250. Preflop raiser folded and the other two called. Turn is an off suit J. Blind checks, now what?

[berya]

I take the free card and either check or fold the river.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I led out for about 250. Preflop raiser folded and the other two called. Turn is an off suit J. Blind checks, now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it should be a fairly routine push, no? I'm trying to back into what the stacks are...let's see: 1500 - 80 - 250 = 1170

Pot = 820

I can't imagine the J helping a calling hand. Do you think they would just call with a pair 66-TT on the flop? Besides a made hand on the flop, I can't imagine what else is beating you that would flat call on the flop.

Push.

[theBruiser500]

This is such an easy check, someone else has a pocket pair.

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine the J helping a calling hand. Do you think they would just call with a pair 66-TT on the flop? Besides a made hand on the flop, I can't imagine what else is beating you that would flat call on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe something like J /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif? And who says there isn't a made hand out there? A set would probably flat-call the flop bet here. Ugh. Terrible situation this early in the tourney. If you think a push would get 66-TT to fold, I guess that's the right play, but I'm not sure that they're going anywhere - I don't think they are putting you on a set or straight if you push here.

[MLG]

pushing somebody off a pocket pair is a reason to bet, no?

[jon_1van]

I don't think you'll fold 88-TT (or JJ-AA for that matter) for 250

[UMTerp]

Yes, of course. Once you get the callers on the flop though, don't you think it's likely that at least one of them has an overpair that he thinks is good though? That jack doesn't appear to help you much either. I dunno... it's definitely a tricky spot to be in.

[MLG]

I meant doesn't it make sense to make a big bet or push on the turn if an opponent has an overpair below a J.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think they are putting you on a set or straight if you push here.


[/ QUOTE ]

why? wouldn't you play a set or a flopped st8 the same way there with such a drawlicious flop?

don't play scared...that pot looks nice.

[jon_1van]

There is definetly an augement for that (big bet on turn to fold a pair 66-TT)

I think that may be your best chance of getting the pot. I don't think you have a big enough stack to make a medium bet on the turn and then try to buy everyone out on the river. So if you are against the check-fold...this is your best option. I don't think you can call and fold on the river to a dud.

So given that you bet the flop I wouldn't argue too much with a All-in here....but I wouldn't have bet the flop because I would hate being in the situation you are in (on the turn)

[MLG]

The fact that the player that had position on me was the one who called the preflop raise, and not the preflop raiser here meant a bunch to me. I think I can put him on a narrower range of hands. PPs 1010 and down, AK, AQ seem likely to me, I don't think Im too worried about him having something funky, or something really big. I was somwhat confused because given the amound of draws on the flop I was having trouble imagining what hands LP could call with twice (preflop and on flop), maybe like AQ thinking he had 10 outs?? The blind I put on a flush draw when he overcalled.

[berya]

I'm sorry I misread you post originally. My fault.

I thought you limped, late position made it 80 and BOTH blinds called. I did not realize it was the BUTTON who overcalled.

I take my lead bet for 200 9 out of 10 times BACK. I would have checked most of the time here. And if I did lead it would most likely be to slow down the action.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the player that had position on me was the one who called the preflop raise, and not the preflop raiser here meant a bunch to me. I think I can put him on a narrower range of hands. PPs 1010 and down, AK, AQ seem likely to me, I don't think Im too worried about him having something funky, or something really big. I was somwhat confused because given the amound of draws on the flop I was having trouble imagining what hands LP could call with twice (preflop and on flop), maybe like AQ thinking he had 10 outs?? The blind I put on a flush draw when he overcalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

= push, right?

[MLG]

I push. LP folds, and the blind calls with J3o. IGHN.