$100+$9 Stars Tourney - overcall with JJ?

[UMTerp]

Last night's Stars tourney - started with 214 players, we're down to 18 players. Already in the money. I don't remember the exact details, but this is close enough. Average stack at this point is about T18,000. There's only one real short stack at my table - UTG+1 has about T4,000. Blinds are 600-1200 with a 100 ante. I'm sitting in decent, though not great position. I'm in about 8th place with T20,000. The real money is in the top three or four as usual.

T2,700 in dead money with the blinds and antes. UTG+1 pushes his last T4,000 in. Folded around to the small blind, who reraises all-in. He has about T14,000.

I have JJ in the big blind. ~T20,000 in the pot, T12,800 for me to call. Overcall here with two players already all-in?? I'll be the shortest stack if I lose the hand, and in the top two or three if I win it.

The table had been very tight the last few orbits, but that was because we were on the bubble for another pay level. We had just gotten down to 18 two or three hands previous, so I thought that play was going to be loosening up again.

Is the decision close?

[ThingDo]

I def. call this all-in here. It really really looks like an isolation play, and I don't know if he's pushing here with AA or KK, QQ is a def. possibility, but I think he'll push there with sooo many hands that you dominate that I think its worth a call.

[Boris]

Wow. very close decision. Sitting here reading your post I would say fold. However, in the heat of battle I'm almost sure I would call.

I say fold for two reasons.

1. With your current stack you can still make it to the final table by playing tight and winning small pots.

2. Even if you call and win the hand, you still have a long ways to go towards finishing in the top 3. Meaning if you are number 3 in chips with 17 players left you are still going to see alot of variance in where you bust out.

If the table was playing exceptionally tough I would lean more towards calling.

[Klak]

i think i would call. you probably have the best hand, though it doesnt play well in multiway pots, you have pretty good odds to call.

[SossMan]

I would quit poker before I folded JJ in that spot.

[soxfan70]

I dont think its close. The call (and loss) leaves with you less than 4x BB. Why risk it on such a marginal hand when it's quite likely that the SB has two overs with the push? It's almost impossible to put the shortstack on a hand, but the SB push tells me that even if I'm ahead now, I'm likely to be WAY behind after the flop. Just my opinion, but I'm kina tight. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Rick Diesel]

I agree with Sossman here. The only possible hand that you are behind here is QQ. There is no way that AA or KK re-raises to isolate, as they would want you in the pot. Coin flips include AK and AQ. Hands that you dominate are 22-TT, AJ, AT, Axs.

The odds of you dominating the opponent are way too great to fold here. interested to hear the results.

Rick D.

[DVC Calif]

Boy, without any read on SB or hand history on the types of plays SB is capable of making, it's a tough call. I agree that it definitely looks like an isolation play; he wants to be HU against the short stack. He could be pushing with anything from 44 to AA. However, if short stack was pushing with Ax and SB was isolating with AK/Q, you have a pretty good shot at winning if the board doesn’t hit either of them.

Alternatively, waiting for a better opportunity, facing a raise and re-raise, is also prudent.

That being said, I’d call and pray to the poker gods that I make my set.

Gambool !!!

[UMTerp]

LOL, SossMan's response made me laugh. I thought it reeked of an isolation play too, and called in about two seconds.

Thought process:

I didn't particularly care what the initial raiser hand, though it certainly would be nice to be ahead of him too. I'm clearly ahead of the probable range of hands he could push with, given that he'd be forced into the blinds in two hands, and he was a long way from the final table.

All I really wanted to do was be ahead of the small blind, and I'd profit from the call regardless of the other player's cards. I figured his probable hands were KK-66 and AK-AT. I dominate 54 of those hands, am tied with 1, slightly ahead with his 32 overcard possibilities, and am way behind 12 times. I thought it was an easy call, and am actually surprised a few of you are advocating folding here. I thought this was a good a chance as any to get a real big stack and make a push for the win.

Turns out that UTG+1 had QT and SB had AJ. Of course an ace flopped, but that's not really the point. I opened all-in from the button two hands later with KQ, ran into AQ, and went out in 17th, though I was very happy with my play throughout the tournament. Best I'd played in the $100 in a while. I felt like I gave myself a real shot to win.

Follow up question for those that wanted me to call:

What is the lowest pocket pair you'd call with here?

My gut tells me to call with 99 and fold 88, and that's probably about right. Agree/Disagree?

[SossMan]

I would call with TT. 99/88 gets a little dicey, because TT/JJ are certainly in his range, and you become coinflips to AT, AJ, KJ, QJ,QT.

The bigger problem with those are that you lose big equity vs. the all in guy, since his range certainly includes many overcards in that spot.

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call with TT. 99/88 gets a little dicey, because TT/JJ are certainly in his range, and you become coinflips to AT, AJ, KJ, QJ, QT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point stands regardless, but are those realistic possibilities for the small blind's hand?? I wouldn't think so. I'd throw KQ in there though I guess.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd throw KQ in there though I guess.



[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you were already a coin flip to KQ...

I guess it depends on how wide a range he is putting the short stack on. A shorty about to be pushed in the blinds is probably pushing w/ a wide range of hands there. If SB recognizes that, but wants to play this heads up, he could certainly raise with KJ and QJ...maybe JT was pushing it, but there are players who fall in love with that hand.

Either way, point taken.

[gergery]

JJ is supereasy call for me.

UTG+1 is about to blow up in blinds in 2 hands. I put him on any pair, A, K, Q, J8+, or connector. If SB can get you to fold, then he’s getting 1.6 to 1 on his money. So any pair, A, K9+, QT+, JT+ would be good enough to play, especially since he’s short himself. Even if you call and lose to UTG but beat SB you come out ahead.

So I’m calling him with ATs+, 55+

--Greg

[gergery]

JJ is supereasy call for me.

UTG+1 is about to blow up in blinds in 2 hands. I put him on any pair, A, K, Q, J8+, or connector. If SB can get you to fold, then he’s getting 1.6 to 1 on his money. So any pair, A, K9+, QT+, JT+ would be good enough to play, especially since he’s short himself. Even if you call and lose to UTG but beat SB you come out ahead.

So I’m calling him with ATs+, 55+

--Greg

[woodguy]

Gotta call.
4th best hand, good pot odds, and an isolation bet.

Too often in this situation you are shown good hands, but not very good hands, even in high buy in tourneys.

You have a very good hand.


This happened to me last night in the Party Super.

We are already in the $$$, when this hand comes up:
(I was playing my fiance's account Heather_W)
(bisonbison is still down until Nov 21)


***** Hand History for Game 1184285144 *****
1500/3000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 7215558) - Tue Nov 16 01:34:49 EST 2004
Table Super Monday(131974) Table 4 (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ebuzz (22158)
Seat 2: ZPimp0707 (7797)
Seat 3: kys2000 (2605)
Seat 4: mrbighayden (10095)
Seat 5: Newb_Hunter (15128)
Seat 6: mhtNL (28842)
Seat 7: puddy55 (18916)
Seat 8: metwo (10005)
Seat 9: Heather_W (16392)
Seat 10: LuckyLady519 (4510)
metwo posts small blind (750)
Heather_W posts big blind (1500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Heather_W [ Qd, Qc ]
LuckyLady519 folds.
ebuzz folds.
ZPimp0707 raises (7797) to 7797
ZPimp0707 is all-In.
kys2000 folds.
mrbighayden raises (10095) to 10095
mrbighayden is all-In.
Newb_Hunter folds.
mhtNL folds.
puddy55 folds.
metwo folds.
Heather_W calls (8595)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ As, Kd, Ad ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Ac ]
Creating Main Pot with $24141 with ZPimp0707
Creating Side Pot 1 with $4596 with mrbighayden
** Summary **
Main Pot: 24141 | Side Pot 1: 4596 |
Board: [ As Kd Ad 2c Ac ]
ebuzz balance 22158, didn't bet (folded)
ZPimp0707 balance 0, lost 7797 [ 5h 5s ] [ a full house, Aces full of fives -- As,Ad,Ac,5h,5s ]
kys2000 balance 2605, didn't bet (folded)
mrbighayden balance 0, lost 10095 [ 5d 5c ] [ a full house, Aces full of fives -- As,Ad,Ac,5d,5c ]
Newb_Hunter balance 15128, didn't bet (folded)
mhtNL balance 28842, didn't bet (folded)
puddy55 balance 18916, didn't bet (folded)
metwo balance 9255, lost 750 (folded)
Heather_W balance 35034, bet 10095, collected 28737, net +18642 [ Qd Qc ] [ a full house, Aces full of queens -- As,Ad,Ac,Qd,Qc ]
LuckyLady519 balance 4510, didn't bet (folded)

When they both showed PRESTO, I turned my chat back on to see if MLG has happened to come by and say hello and spread his luckbox dust. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif


I actually thought for a nanosecond about mucking it, as mrbighayden seemed quite tight.

Then I pulled my head out of my ass and remembered all the talk here about taking every edge offered if the price is right, and the price is right for you and me with these hands.

You just can't fold here, and JJ almost = QQ in this spot.

It is these types of situations that help propel you to the final table.

Alas, I put my head back up my ass and finished 23rd.

Regards,
Woodguy