83o in SB: Value VS Fear

[gaming_mouse]

2/4 Loose Pacific Poker. No reads on villain.

Hero SB with 83o.

Folded to Hero, who completes. BB checks.

Flop: 228 rainbow.

Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: A

Hero check calls.

River: 6

Hero checks, BB checks.

Comments on all streets please.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]

Hero SB with 83o. Folded to Hero, who completes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf? Why?

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: 228 rainbow.

Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just how LP is it? At Party 2/4, I'd always 3-bet here because too often he's raising overcards and is going to check behind on the turn and bet the river when he hits. If he's not raising with overcards... well I suppose you fold.

[Aces McGee]

No way do I open-complete with 83o here. In fact, no way do I open-complete with any cards, save maybe getting tricky with big pairs. But even then, probably not.

Fold or raise, depending on how tight the blind is. But probably fold.

-McGee

[IndieMatty]

Completing 83o in this situation and 99.9% of all situations is absolutely horrible.

Give the guy your buck.

Other then that, let's pretend it was 89s. Bet until he gives you a reason not to.

[Fat Nicky]

Fold pre-flop.

[spamuell]

In fact, no way do I open-complete with any cards

I used to not do this, but sometimes with a loose passive BB when I have a hand like J9o, it seems too good to not complete given he's unlikely to raise and raising yourself isn't really a great option either.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hero SB with 83o. Folded to Hero, who completes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf? Why?


[/ QUOTE ]

spamuell,

Good advice on the 3-bet.

I'm guessing your "wtf" means you think I either fold or raise this. I normally do, but not always: I find that even at the passive tables many people defend (and overdefend) their blinds, but if you just complete and then bet out on the flop they have more respect for your bet. Am I crazy?

gm

[Sarge85]

Fold PF? - I mean its 83o...there are much better spots to pick to go up against the BB when it's folded to you. - you realize 83o is just as bad as 72o right?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[slogger]

Fold preflop.

The rest looks fine, but you're going to lose a lot of money playing garbage like that - you should be folding that after 3 limpers, let alone after none.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hero SB with 83o. Folded to Hero, who completes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf? Why?


[/ QUOTE ]

spamuell,

Good advice on the 3-bet.

I'm guessing your "wtf" means you think I either fold or raise this. I normally do, but not always: I find that even at the passive tables many people defend (and overdefend) their blinds, but if you just complete and then bet out on the flop they have more respect for your bet. Am I crazy?

gm

[/ QUOTE ]
His WTF doesn't mean you fold or raise this, it means you fold it.

People should be overdefending in games where you're considering raising with 83o out of position. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just fold, and be ready for the next hand.

Rob

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF? - I mean its 83o...there are much better spots to pick to go up against the BB when it's folded to you. - you realize 83o is just as bad as 72o right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I do. I was planning to bluff the flop, which has been working for me against these passive players (see above post). Not trying to excuse myself (it was a bad move), just giving my reasoning.....

gm

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
People should be overdefending in games where you're considering raising with 83o out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Good point.

gm

[Aces McGee]

Why isn't raising J9o a good idea here?

-McGee

[Jonny Melon]

Fold pre-flop, this isn't good enough for a blind steal (I would try to steal about 2/3 of the time in this spot against an unknown; but 83o don't make the cut). Completing here is inexplicable.


You backed off way too easily in this hand. A flop raise means just about anything in this spot. I'd lean toward a flop 3-bet, then lead out on the turn and see what happens.

Jon

[Jonny Melon]

Something that I think gets overlooked is the fact that your SB is GONE in this spot as soon as you post it, unless you succeed in a blind steal. When you complete, you are giving your SB to Party Poker; you are essentially limping (albeit more cheaply). This is one of the biggest swing factors as to why open-completing from the SB is almost NEVER correct (I can think of a few exceptions; they are very rare)

Jon

[Jonny Melon]

Are you factoring the "no flop no drop" concept into your analysis of the J9o situation? That is very significant. I wrote something about that below. Curious to hear your thoughts. I don't think I have ever open-completed from the SB in a full limit ring game (I'd have to double-check that to be sure of course).

Jon

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Something that I think gets overlooked is the fact that your SB is GONE in this spot as soon as you post it, unless you succeed in a blind steal. When you complete, you are giving your SB to Party Poker; you are essentially limping (albeit more cheaply). This is one of the biggest swing factors as to why open-completing from the SB is almost NEVER correct (I can think of a few exceptions; they are very rare)

[/ QUOTE ]

Jon,

This is good to know. Could you elaborate? When are the situations in which it would be correct?

Thanks,
gm

[Joe Tall]

I find that even at the passive tables many people defend (and overdefend) their blinds

That doesn't mean you have to over-defend your SB, muck preflop.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[jayrutz2]

[ QUOTE ]
Something that I think gets overlooked is the fact that your SB is GONE in this spot as soon as you post it, unless you succeed in a blind steal. When you complete, you are giving your SB to Party Poker; you are essentially limping (albeit more cheaply). This is one of the biggest swing factors as to why open-completing from the SB is almost NEVER correct (I can think of a few exceptions; they are very rare)

Jon

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares that the $1 goes to the house? you are getting into the pot for half price. If it is just SB and BB, I can understand that you would either raise or fold, with one limper, many marginal EP hands are playable, like K10o, Q9o and suited connectors. With 3 or more limpers a huge number of hands look good for 1/2 a bet, no?

[mtdoak]

Your biggest error occured preflop. Just throw away your SB, it'll just get you in trouble even if it hits.