Playing junk with position.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

There has been some talk about playing junk with position in another thread which was a good lead in for this...

I posted a few days ago about playing small suited connectors in an unraised pot and with position. I took it a step further last night (not necessarily intending to). Comments appreciated.

Playing $1/$2 NL ($250 max) at a new club last night (new for me) -- on the first three rounds I played very tight, had no cards and saw three flops total (two from BB, one late position limp with suited connectors). So my stack is very close to the max ($250). There are 7 players at the table.

I am on the button with J /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

UTG limps, UTG+1 raises to $7 (a very small raise for this table), an MP call. I call, both blinds call, and UTG calls. Six out of seven players call for a pot of $42.

Thinking pre-flop: At this point, I haven't shown down anything. Yes, my hand is junk -- but if I don't hit the flop hard, I will get away from it. The stacks are fairly deep -- everyone has between 75x and 200x BB. I am also pretty sure that there will be at least two more callers -- a $5 raise gets no respect here and these guys like to see flops. If there was a significant re-raise from the blinds, I would have folded to it.
Admission: I was probably a little too eager to mix it up as well.

Flop: J62 rainbow (2 /images/graemlins/club.gif). [I guess that is the best I could hope for]

Checked to pre-flop raiser that bets $25. Fold to me. I call. All others fold. Villian has about $130 left. Pot at $92.

Flop thinking: Villian has a medium pair, top pair, or two overcards. My hand is best and there is not much I am afraid of on the river.

Turn: K (completing rainbow)

UTG+1 bets $60. I push all-in. Clearly not liking it, villian calls his last $70.

Turn thinking: If he had made anything better than a pair, he would likely try to trap me. He thinks his pre-flop quality hand is still good -- so lets put him to the test.

Villian shows his AJs.

No A on the river and I am good.

So how stupid was my pre-flop play? Any comments on my later play?

The hand did quite a bit for my table image -- confusing the other players that took me for a rock.

[beta1607]

Read 'The Different Stages in a Players Life' by Ray Zee it is posted on this site. This is a bad play with good results, if the flop with AJ6 or JJx instead, you would be reaching to your wallet for more money and certianly had you not won you would not think this was a good strategy. I understand your theory behind the play but your analysis is too results oriented. When you play hands like this, even with position you set yourself up to be dominated.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
Read 'The Different Stages in a Players Life' by Ray Zee it is posted on this site. This is a bad play with good results, if the flop with AJ6 or JJx instead, you would be reaching to your wallet for more money and certianly had you not won you would not think this was a good strategy. I understand your theory behind the play but your analysis is too results oriented. When you play hands like this, even with position you set yourself up to be dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

To a certain extent, I agree. I am not an expert (or whatever Ray Zee would call the final stage). Indeed, my call (rather than fold) pre-flop indicates just that. But I think you make way too many assumptions with the rest of your analysis.

There is a large difference between the flop I got and the flops you hypothesize. Might I have lost my stack there? Certainly a possibility. Would my opponent have played it differently? Very likely. As the pre-flop raiser in this hand, the only remotely possible hand I put him on that could beat me right now was JJ -- and I would have expected him to check with that hand. When the King came on the turn, there was certainly a better chance that he had a better made hand or a long shot draw -- but it still wasn't all that scary. I felt he wanted to take down the pot there -- and if his stack was a little bigger, my decision would have been tougher.

His bet on the board of Jxx (without an A or a 6) would likely have led to my fold on the flop.

One thing I have learned in the few hundred hours I have played Baby NL live games is that players at this level (including me -- but I am working on it) are typically very predictable.

[beta1607]

There is no significant reason J6s is for practical purposes much stronger then a hand like 72s. Many times I have seen a flop come 722 but a favorable flop like that is a rarity and over the long haul I would venture to say that by calling with hands like j6s you lose more then you win. Obviously there will be times where you hit the flop well for bottom two pair and win a decent pot but over the course of a players lifetime these hands will be losers plain and simple. The loses at times you make a 2nd best hand and lose a significant amount or just miss totally and lose your $7 preflop call will account for more then the times you take an oppenents stack will gain you.

Lets just assume you hit a decent flop 1 out of 50 times you play that hand which is probably more favorable then math dictats. 49 times you lose 7 dollars for a total lose of 343 1 time you win a huge pot for a gain of 250 shows a net lose of $93 and this does not of course take into account times you make a 2nd best hand and lose more then the initial $7. Again I know I am over simplfing here but the principal is correct or it would right to call with any two with position and I think we can agree that is not true.

I do agree with playing non-traditional hands occasionally, but those hands should have a little more preflop value, like 46s so you have more ways the flop can hit your hand.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no significant reason J6s is for practical purposes much stronger then a hand like 72s.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely right -- and my "mistake" was pre-flop. I would not have called a real raise (which at this table was between $12 and $25) -- and should not have called at all. But I hadn't played a hand, I saw two clubs and the button, $7 seemed cheap and I threw in my chips.

Still, once I called, I had a plan. I have no problem folding a mediocre hand (middle or bottom pair) and would probably have thrown away top pair, no kicker here as well to the raiser's bet. I would have played: two pair, trips, flush draw, and possibly a straight draw (but not necessarily, since it would be a one-card hand). Those come up far more than 1 in 50.

There was a chance that I could be second best with one of those hands, but there are many premium hands that can be second best as well.

What I was thinking -- and I could be wrong -- is that an occassional limp (better than calling the small raise) with a junk hand with position can mix up the game and make you appear far less predictable. Although I should probably limit these plays to the 75s type hands that give me more ways to win.

[bholdr]

i will sometimes call with total garbage if i notice something that leads me to beleive i can win without a fight after the flop

like i've noticed that all a guy would raise with UTG was JJ or QQ, he tried to limp-reraise the rest of his good hands and folded everything else

so i call with anything from the button, and bet him out if an A or K flops. it has worked against the same guy like three times. (this is my weekly home game)

i geuss this is pretty situational though. but my point is i need a very good reason to play crap.