No Limit Discussion In Super System

[gaming_mouse]

I read in another thread that Mason (or Sklansky) had said that if you played No Limit today the way Brunson advises in Super System, you would lose.

First: Comments on that point?

Second: If that is true, is reading Super System a waste of time for a beginning No Limit player today? Everyone seems to agree the Ciaffone book is best -- Is this a good place to start? (I already have a strong background in limit poker so the advanced theoretical concepts shouldn't be a problem)

Thanks for any thoughts,
gm

[betgo]

I had an argument with Mason about this in the other thread. I think the no limit material in Super System is very valuable. However, I would not blindly follow his advice. I would be careful with advice in any book, particularly this one and Cloutier's books.

[betgo]

Hellmuth's book also has some good information and analyis, but some notoriously questionable advice.

Sklansky's books have good advice, but except for "Small Stakes Holdem", a lot of it doesn't work below the 50/100 level.

I sometimes wonder if some authors (not Brunson or Sklansky) put in material to confuse or mislead their opponents.

It's good to read books, but not to play buy the book.

[Billy Zee]

Hiya's

I'm a bit confused. I can't get into DB's mind BUT, if he's still winning at NLH, who's advice is he using ? Or is the FOX still using his experience to adjust to today's poker playing genre ?

I own SS in paperback, but I am soon to buy it in hb edition to keep as a collectors item. I still go back and read parts of it.

Regards
Billy Zee

[Evan]

I don't play much NL but here's why I think the NL advice in Super/System is outdated.

Doyle's approach realies heavily on big implied odds that typically aren't present today due to very low capped buy-ins in most NL games. Low suited connectors and baby pairs just aren't as profitable, especially when played for a raise, when the stacks are only 50 bb deep like some of the games today.

[betgo]

Brunson tells you how to play the biggest stakes cash NL 25 years ago. Playing aggressively works better against top players and speculative hands work better with deep money. Don't blindly follow what he says.

However, I would look at how he says to play suited connectors, how to play aces etc. Look at the principles of playing aggressively to pressure your opponents.

It is a classic work. The fact that you shouldn't follow exactly what it says doesn't detract from its value. The SSII may be more updated.

However, don't look at any book as a manual for how to play. You have to play your own game adapted to your own style and the conditions of your game and your opponents.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the no limit material in Super System is very valuable. However, I would not blindly follow his advice.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with this 100%. There is a lot of good, very useful stuff in there. But as far as playing that way as a "System" it won't work. Read it a few times. Try some of it. Figure out what works for you. Just don't take it all as gospel.

[Bernas]

Are you talking no limit cash games or no limit tournaments?

I don't think you can say that this book is a waste of time to read. Some of the best players in the world play very close to the style that Doyle suggests. Daniel N is a shining example of this. He is betting out at flops constantly. He doesn't always have the best of it but the amount of times he takes the pot makes it worth it.

Doyle admitted that he had to change his style of play slightly, but watch him play and you will see that he is still a very action oriented player. A successful one too.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
I read in another thread that Mason (or Sklansky) had said that if you played No Limit today the way Brunson advises in Super System, you would lose.

First: Comments on that point?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a fair comment as doyle's overall strategy relied on people folding.

[ QUOTE ]
Second: If that is true, is reading Super System a waste of time for a beginning No Limit player today?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's will still be helpful. It's one of the 3 essential big bet books currently in print. But read it after the Ciaffone books so you will have a good understanding of how the depth of money affects things when you come to read supersystem. Supersystem is very good at giving advice on specific hands and various textures of flops on deep money.


[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to agree the Ciaffone book is best -- Is this a good place to start? (I already have a strong background in limit poker so the advanced theoretical concepts shouldn't be a problem)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an excellent place to start. Ciaffone uses your limit knowledge to explain how a pot/no limit betting structure changes things. After this book, read his 'improve your poker' book, and then supersystem.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bernas:

You're confusing no limit tournament play and no limit cash game play. SS was written for no limit cash game play.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Hydro]

You also should note that he created it basiclly for live games. It is much easier to set a style in a live game as opposed to an online game. This nl section works well when I played in live games, on the internet it wasnt much help

[Bernas]

Hi Mason,

Yes, I understand. However, I believe a lot of his No-Limit advice can be applied to tournament play. I watched a lot of different players use it at Foxwoods tournament this past weekend.

Cheers,
Brad

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
he created it basiclly for live games

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, it was written in 1979. It wasn't basically for live games, it was only for live games--because that's all that existed then and for the next 20 years. /images/graemlins/grin.gif