Suited connector poll

[slimpikkens]

Party 2/4 10-handed: I’m on my second orbit with no player reads. I joined this particular table because the average pot was 9BB…so far, table seems loose-passive.

Hero is CO with 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, Hero…

[Emperor]

Wow I fold any suited connector-3gapper where both cards are not both higher than an 8..unless it is Axs, or Kxs if I am frisky...

like I might call with J9s or QTs. I fold the lower ones because even if it is +EV it isn't much, and your variance goes through the roof with every marginal hand you play, even if it is +EV...

[private joker]

In SSH, the cutoff for cold-calling with suited connectors against a raise with at least 4 limpers is 76s. I'm inclined to agree. Fold 65s. (In fact, I'm not keen on cold-calling with 76s or 87s either).

[helpmeout]

I'm not calling this trash against a raise.

Its flush potential is poor because of the low value of the cards. I've had enough flushes beat to know that you have to devalue the flush value of this hand by a bit.

A trash two pair or trips has to be devalued as well for the same reasons.

I just dont see it being worth playing here for a raise even with position.

[Trix]

I voted call, one of the blinds will probably come along aswell, so it will be like 6:1 or so.

[nut case ace]

I like calling here. most likely all of the limpers are also gonna call the raise and maybe others will cold call behind you making a great pot before anyone's even seen a flop. I don't see how this call affects your variance too much since you are giving up one big bet to see a flop that, if pretty enough, could win you a big pot. with this hand it is easy to throw it away even if you flop top pair or something else very marginal. this might not be so easy if you flopped top pair with J9s even if you felt you were beat by a big pair or even outkicked. when you flop this hand right, either with a made hand or a draw, you are definitely going to get paid off by marginal hands or big pairs at this limit due to the size of the pot. anyone want to do the math to figure out the probability of higher flush if you flop the draw or made flush?

[nepenthe]

I am in the "call" camp for reasons mentioned above. That, and my VPIP at 3/6 is around 21.

[mtdoak]

This should be an easy fold, even in potentially a large pot.

If you get any sort of draw, pot odds are going to dictate a call, meaning you are going to be taken for at least 2 more BB in chasing. Shoot, even if you get an open ended SF draw, you're really only chasing the straight, because you can't be certain that people aren't playing with Kxs and you are going to call down to the river.

[sfer]

I don't coldcall with suited connectors.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't coldcall with suited connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't either, unless they are biggins. your holding just doesn't seem to hold enough value to me. i will concede that playing these cards in this spot, would not be a tragic mistake, if much of one at all. i dont enjoy coldcalling, feels slutty. i sit back and watch this hand for free. give me a pocket pair in this spot, and i am in.

[sfer]

For me, it's not a bad feeling about coldcalling. All the NYers see me do that a fair amount--probably too much. I don't like playing an implied odds hand that usually flops just a draw when my implied odds are halved.

[profpeebody]

Why no raise option?
If the timing and table is right I would raise in the cut-off if I am fairly sure I can buy the button. (I feel less comfortable with a 56s than 78s). Otherwise I would fold. Never cold-call with a hand like this. It is a hand that will most likely be drawing for something, so I like showing strength to get a free card or two for the inside straight draw. After the flop, I'll fold if I don't have a legitamite draw.

I like to file it under "mixing up my play." At my local cardroom, I've gained a rep as a tight-player that only plays cards that are 10 or above. When high cards come, I get less action and when no high cards come out, they roll over me with their low two pair. I've taken some huge pots when guys put me on an over pair and cap their top two pair, only to see my straight.

Or am I just a maniac?

[feelixthegreek]

I'm calling based on the loose passive read, which makes a free card play on the flop possible if I pick up my flush draw. It also seems that we're looking at a six or seven hands coming in for two bets. Yes, the cards are weak, and if I knew the table better I'd be much more inclined to lay down. But I'm sticking to the loose-passive description.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Why no raise option?
If the timing and table is right I would raise in the cut-off if I am fairly sure I can buy the button. (I feel less comfortable with a 56s than 78s). Otherwise I would fold. Never cold-call with a hand like this. It is a hand that will most likely be drawing for something, so I like showing strength to get a free card or two for the inside straight draw. After the flop, I'll fold if I don't have a legitamite draw.

I like to file it under "mixing up my play." At my local cardroom, I've gained a rep as a tight-player that only plays cards that are 10 or above. When high cards come, I get less action and when no high cards come out, they roll over me with their low two pair. I've taken some huge pots when guys put me on an over pair and cap their top two pair, only to see my straight.

Or am I just a maniac?

[/ QUOTE ]
You'd 3-bet with 56s? Go sit in the corner with bunky.

[Danenania]

I'd fold with 65s and 76s but probably call with 98s and above as well as J9s. Not sure why.

[Bob T.]

My VPIP is in that neighborhood, and I wouldn't give a second thought to the hand after I folded. I wonder which hands I play that you don't.

I just don't like the idea of putting in two bets with an implied odds hand.

[profpeebody]

who's bunky?

[Runner Runner]

Why the heck is 65s the hand here? I don't think this one is close at all. Neither is 67s,78s,89s or 9Ts. We might be able to have a decent discussion if the hand was JTs. You must see the flop cheap with suited connectors, any more then 1 bet preflop and the hand is not profitable!

[BucHawk]

But in a sense, you are seeing the flop cheaply visa-vie the number of players coming along with you. You will likely have this flop be 5-7 handed.

Think of it this way: Pretend that instead of 6 people seeing the flop for a raise playing at a 1/2 table think of it as 6 people limping in at a 2/4 table. In that case, you'd limp in behind them w/ that 65s from the cutoff.

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way: Pretend that instead of 6 people seeing the flop for a raise playing at a 1/2 table think of it as 6 people limping in at a 2/4 table. In that case, you'd limp in behind them w/ that 65s from the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is flawed in that it ignores the implied strength of the raiser. Using this logic will cause you to call many hands that you should not.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

Think of it this way: Pretend that instead of 6 people seeing the flop for a raise playing at a 1/2 table think of it as 6 people limping in at a 2/4 table. In that case, you'd limp in behind them w/ that 65s from the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no mathematical sense. You have to cold-call two small bets. Limping is calling one small bet, so what you propose is limping on a 2/4 table, and then once the flop comes, you're back on a 1/2 table.

Also, following this ridiculous funhouse logic, would you fold TT on a 4/8 table because it's like getting capped preflop on a 1/2 table? You might even have to fold KK on a 40-80 table because it's putting you all in on a 1/2 table.

[BucHawk]

I understand and concede your point that your implied odds are less because the betting on later streets will be smaller, but part of the implied odds include how many people will come along for the ride. I guess what I should have said and the point I'm trying to make is that part of the rationale for not calling raises cold w/ speculative hands like this is because raises tend to also thin out the field making your hand -EV on later streets even if you do pick up a draw.

I'd probably put this hand on turbo muck pre-flop, but I don't think it's a big mistake (even if it's one at all) to call this and see the flop 5-7 handed.

For what it's worth: 6 reasonable hands you might see puts 5s6s in not a bad position....

Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards EV
6s 5s 0.214
As Qh 0.174
Tc Th 0.201
Jd Kh 0.144
Ac 7c 0.135
Kd 9d 0.132

Even if you completely take away the flush even though unlikely, this hand is not looking up very far (changed the AQ to suited of our same suit):

Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards EV
6s 5s 0.153
As Qs 0.222
Tc Th 0.203
Jd Kh 0.152
Ac 7c 0.136
Kd 9d 0.134

[BaronVonCP]

you make twice as much money postflop on the 2/4 than you do on the 1/2

that counts I promise

[Altaslim]

I wouldn't consider calling for a moment. Even if the flop hits me I'm still drawing and have little potential to make enough money to make up for the vast majority of times the flop misses me and I have a sure loser.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
For me, it's not a bad feeling about coldcalling. All the NYers see me do that a fair amount--probably too much. I don't like playing an implied odds hand that usually flops just a draw when my implied odds are halved.

[/ QUOTE ]

SFER, I like the way you put this... Especially the part about calling the hand an "implied odds hand." I haven't heard it called that elsewhere, but I have thought that these hands should be called that way, rather than "good multiway.."

Also, the part about just picking up a draw was good...

[slimpikkens]

As sfer pointed out, calling a raise with a suited connector cuts your implied odds in half. I’ve become accustomed to that ‘rule’ over the past couple months. But what seemed counterintuitive to me about this situation is folding when my equity is telling me I’m going to win more than my fair share.

Assuming one of the blinds calls and the original limpers call, that’ll put seven in the pot:

5s6s against Qh4h, 2d2c, 9h6h, AsKc, JcTc, Qc8d

has 15.45% equity according to Pokerstove. I tried a couple other hand combinations against 5s6s and best case scenario I saw was an equity of 19% and worst case scenario was an equity of 9%.

So if I have 15-16% equity in a 7-way pot, I’m winning more than my fair share. But it’s closer than I thought it would be…real close according to these generalizations (especially if you consider the occasional tie that’s built into the pokerstove equity numbers).

The other important factor mentioned was 5s6s being a drawing hand. You have to consider all the times you hit a piece of the flop and donate flop/turn bets only to miss on the river. That’s why it’s easier to make a decision here with a small pair: you can quickly calculate how many additional bets you’d have to collect to make the call profitable KNOWING you’re folding if you miss the set. Much more difficult to approximate how many flop/turn bets you’ll have to put in on average to hit the draw (although saying that makes me want to try).

Anyway, I’m starting to ramble…

Thanks to all who voted/replied.

[gamblore99]

with the large amount of opponents, there is a very good chance the BB is gonna call, especially in a 2-4 game. I also think there is a fairly good change the button and sb will call
i expect 6-8 players with an average of something like 6.75. 6.75:1 is good yes?