Being passive with TPTK

[DBowling]

Not a bad beat post, i was looking back at this hand i think i should have raised the turn, but im not sure why.
Possible reasons to raise:
Push out a better hand.
Charge a worse hand to outdraw me.
If i dont raise, but he would have called me anyway, i have commited a mathmatical tragedy.
A heart might kill my action.

My reasons for being passive on the flop and turn were:
Im way ahead of a hand like KK, QQ and i dont want to scare him away.
Im way ahead of a hand like AQ, AT.
Im too far behind a set or AJ to get away from my hand if i reraise and he pushes.
CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT AFTER 13,000 HANDS AT 6MAX, AKs IS MY BIGGEST LOSING HAND? no? well neither can i. maybe you will after you read this HH

***** Hand History for Game 1159484818 *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, November 09, 20:26:36 EDT 2004
Table Table 14874 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: mck26 ( $92.55 )
Seat 3: hoomanchew ( $59.9 )
Seat 5: jbowl111 ( $108.75 )
Seat 10: bigzeus1 ( $71.2 )
Seat 8: vietemu ( $0 )
Seat 6: Mystacides ( $41.2 )
Mystacides posts small blind [$0.5].
bigzeus1 posts big blind [$1].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jbowl111 [ K/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
mck26 folds.
hoomanchew raises [$3].
jbowl111 calls [$3].
Mystacides folds.
bigzeus1 folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
hoomanchew bets [$7].
jbowl111 calls [$7].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
hoomanchew bets [$9].
jbowl111 calls [$9].

** Dealing River ** [ T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
hoomanchew bets [$35].
jbowl111 calls [$35].
hoomanchew shows [ A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] two pairs, aces and tens.
jbowl111 doesn't show [ Ks, As ] a pair of aces.
hoomanchew wins $107.5 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and tens.

[prk]

What else can you possibly do there besides pushing All-in after the turn card??? I think you played it well and just got SURVED on the river!

[Tilt]

My .02....

Raise the flop, another $14.
Raise the turn.

Do something to give some chance he'll fold! And to find out where you are in this hand. If you raise that flop, you will learn a lot about where you are. AK is not a drawing hand, so don't string this out hoping KK, QQ, etc. will pay off your pair of aces at the river.

And I think fold at the river in this case when you get there unimproved. If you are at the river with TPTK, think carefully about whether your opponent is betting pot sized into you with less.

[DBowling]

[ QUOTE ]
Do something to give some chance he'll fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the thing that is sort of bothering my about this hand. Why do i want him to fold? I dont think i want him to. Im 89% to win this hand on the flop. 93% on the turn. I dont want him to fold. I do want him to pay me more money though. So the question is how do i get the most money.

I agree about what youre saying about KK, QQ. After i call the flop/turn, he is unlikely to pay me off unimproved.

Im also wondering if i have any folding equity at all against a better hand. I might get A4 to drop off, but its a stretch to imagine A4 being there (seeing as he was the pf raiser). i doubt someone is going to drop top two against me. And i know they arent going to lay down a set.

By mearly calling the flop, i get him to bet out the turn with any holding he has, better or worse. Raising the turn allows me to make more money against an Ax type of hand and prevents any QQ/KK/Ax type of hand from out drawing me cheap.

Right?

[DBowling]

Thanks, i agree pushing the turn probably would have been best. Isnt it SERVED? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]

This is the thing that is sort of bothering my about this hand. Why do i want him to fold? I dont think i want him to. Im 89% to win this hand on the flop. 93% on the turn. I dont want him to fold. I do want him to pay me more money though. So the question is how do i get the most money.
Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting point. But you dont know for sure that you are a huge favorite. In fact, you dont know anything about his hand, cause you are just calling every street. He could be on a pure flush draw, or he might have two pair already. And when he raises the stakes at the river, cause you never raised him, you dont know what to do.

By raising you 1) may get more money in while you are ahead 2) learn that you are not ahead and save money down the road, and 3) sometimes take it down right there. Remember you are 100% to win when the opponent folds. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BK_]

raise the flop. but you arnt raising to get him to fold, you are raising for value vs his most comomn hands (AQ,AJ). then you can get all in on the turn easily.

if the flop comes AQ10, then play it alot more cautiously.

[schwza]

what site is this from? how are the 6-max games there?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
My reasons for being passive on the flop and turn were:
Im way ahead of a hand like KK, QQ and i dont want to scare him away.
Im way ahead of a hand like AQ, AT.
Im too far behind a set or AJ to get away from my hand if i reraise and he pushes.
CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT AFTER 13,000 HANDS AT 6MAX, AKs IS MY BIGGEST LOSING HAND? no? well neither can i. maybe you will after you read this HH


[/ QUOTE ]

In my humble opinion, you played this hand terribly. You need to define your opponents hand while it is still relatively cheap to do that. In this case, I would have raised it to $20 on the flop. Three things might have happened:

(1) He might have folded. You win a small pot (but not too small) which is far better than losing a big pot (which you accomplished admirably).

(2) He could call. Depends on the opponent, this screams to me that you have him dominated. If he checks on the turn you bet 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot. If he bets the turn, you need to reevaluate.

(3) He reraises. That's when you know you are beat and you lay down the hand. You are not too far in that you cannot get away -- if you are, that's a big leak.

I also don't like the cold call pre-flop -- but I dislike that less.

[DBowling]

When i said i couldnt get away from the hand if he reraised me, i was refering to the turn. You are very right that i could get away from it on the flop if he reraises. But dont you think he would reraise with AQ just as often as AJ?
But i do see what youre saying about it leaving me clueless as to where i am at.
As for the cold call preflop, i agree, sometimes. Ive noticed 6 max being very aggressive, i think i was just trying to be too fancy, when playing this hand straight forward would have been best.

[DBowling]

This is party. Ive noticed huge swings at the 6 max here. I dont claim to be a great short handed player, but it seems i either dominate the table or am dominated. They are very aggressive, and the good aggressive players run over me, and the bad aggressive ones pay me off. Im really trying to work on my shorthanded game, but am clueless on how to improve.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
When i said i couldnt get away from the hand if he reraised me, i was refering to the turn. You are very right that i could get away from it on the flop if he reraises. But dont you think he would reraise with AQ just as often as AJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

On Party Poker, you might be correct -- but generally, if I am raised after the flop and I have paired my Ace but can be outkicked (or losing to two pair), there is very little chance I reraise. I don't think I would reraise with AQ here. Look at it from the other guys view (assuming he had AQ). Given that you didn't reraise preflop, it might be tough to put you on AK -- but he was still beaten by AJ or A4 (often played at Party, particularly if soooooted).

[ QUOTE ]

But i do see what youre saying about it leaving me clueless as to where i am at.
As for the cold call preflop, i agree, sometimes. Ive noticed 6 max being very aggressive, i think i was just trying to be too fancy, when playing this hand straight forward would have been best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am fine with the call preflop, but only if you get agressive after the flop hits you -- which you didn't do. TPTK is a good hand but its not a hand to slow play (which is essentially what you did).

[phrosty]

i posted a hand very similar to this the other night and i'll never play TPTK passively again. Im my situation my opponent was betting a set and i hit top two pair on the turn (AQ)you can imagine how costly this was. i agree with the posters who said you have to reraise the flop and get some idea where you are in the hand to make any kind of intelligent play on the turn and river

[edge]

I like it. You're only losing to JJ or AA (possibly AJ?) on the flop, and I can't see him being on a heart draw (unless he likes to raise KQs out of position). You could possibly raise on the turn, but that will just fold out anything you beat. If you raise the turn, and you're called, then what?

He hit his three-outer. Oh well. By the way, I check the river through if he checks.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. You're only losing to JJ or AA (possibly AJ?) on the flop, and I can't see him being on a heart draw (unless he likes to raise KQs out of position).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's five-handed and one player has already folded. I'd be raising many hands weaker than KQs there and there are plenty of players more aggressive than me.

On the flop he'll call a raise with some hands that are way behind. He raised preflop so he'll be betting this flop most of the time regardless of his cards. He might have a pair of jacks or a gutshot. If you call he'll know his hand is no good but he'll get a chance to hit his four or five outer on the turn.