Fold this straight?

[edthayer]

Hero has 64 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the BB

Three folds, MP1 limps, MP2 folds, MP3 limps, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop:
2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero checks,MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn:
5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets, all call.

River:
J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Huh-oh. Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP3 3-bets, CO folds, Hero ?

[fairness]

i'd call if it was 1 bet back to me, kind of hard to call 2 though especially when everyone just called on the turn

[Ajax410]

I agree with fairness here - I'm willing to pay off the flush for one more bet, but two bets back to me and I'm dropping this hand as quickly as I can.

Alex

[pointcount]

call me a sheep but I agree with the above; fold. 2 bets cold is especially hard with the a host of callers on the turn although wouldn't smart players be raising a flush draw here for an equity edge (if you get 2 or more callers isn't it +EV or is that only on the flop?) Either way prospects are looking grim and no sign that you wont have to call 1 more after the 2 cold. Fold.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
(if you get 2 or more callers isn't it +EV or is that only on the flop?)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's only on the flop.. On the turn you need 4.1 callers, so basically only raise the draw on the turn if your immediate left bet out and got 3 callers before you, then you have an excellent trap.

[pointcount]

Better just to call this turn with the flushdraw. Roger.

[partygirluk]

Does anyone else C/R the turn?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else C/R the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it depends on what you know of the CO. You'd hate to have this checked through, but you could do well to make the rest of the field call 2 big bets cold.

[cab4656]

Don't checkraise the turn. You have a very strong hand that will likely only be beat by a diamond draw that may not even be out there. Bet the turn and hope that CO raises.

You don't need to make the field cold-call two. You have a monster. Now you want to focus on getting as many people to come along with you as possible. And it's not like you're gonna make someone fold his flush draw for two cold anyway.

And yeah, the river is an easy fold.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else C/R the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, you have terrible relative position to CO. hey may also take a free card.

[Entity]

Checkraising this turn would be horrible. Why the hell would you want to face them with two cold?

Rob

[GrunchCan]

Fold PF.

On the river your'e getting somewhere around 2-17 on a call, or 1-8.5. Is there no flush out there at least 11% of the time? I think so. There could very well be a number of 1-pair or 2-pair hands out there like AJ, QJ, etc. I call.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF.

On the river your'e getting somewhere around 2-17 on a call, or 1-8.5. Is there no flush out there at least 11% of the time? I think so. There could very well be a number of 1-pair or 2-pair hands out there like AJ, QJ, etc. I call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Preflop is close (7:1). I'd want one more caller to be happy. River is also really close -- but I think it's a fold.

Rob

[GrunchCan]

a diamond draw that may not even be out there ... the river is an easy fold

These two statements are directly contradictory. Is the flush sure to be out there, hence the easy fold? Or is it unlikely to be out there?

[GrunchCan]

Preflop is close

I don't think so, at least it isn't close for me. I would not be playing 64 /images/graemlins/spade.gif very often at all from any position that isn't a blind, except under favorable conditions. In any case, I would never play 64 /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG, no matter what the conditions.

My BB calling standards are to play against a raise the same way I wouyld play in EP against a raise. Which is to say, extremely tight against a raise. Any looser than that and I tend to be dominated or get in to nasty judgement call situations like this one.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is close

I don't think so, at least it isn't close for me. I would not be playing 64 /images/graemlins/spade.gif very often at all from any position that isn't a blind, except under favorable conditions. In any case, I would never play 64 /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG, no matter what the conditions.

My BB calling standards are to play against a raise the same way I wouyld play in EP against a raise. Which is to say, extremely tight against a raise. Any looser than that and I tend to be dominated or get in to nasty judgement call situations like this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your BB standards should be a bit looser, given A) the great relative position you have, and B) the immediate and implied odds you're getting. With one other caller I make this call easily. As is, it isn't a bad call, but might be a bit loose -- examples like this are mentioned in SSH quite frequently (56s and the like).

In the BB against a raise, you should be playing any hand you'd play in LP for one bet -- with the exception of easily dominated offsuit broadways, like AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT, and JT. I don't generally play AJ there as well, but 64s is fine. Odd, no? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[Carmine]

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your BB standards should be a bit looser, given A) the great relative position you have, and B) the immediate and implied odds you're getting. With one other caller I make this call easily. As is, it isn't a bad call, but might be a bit loose -- examples like this are mentioned in SSH quite frequently (56s and the like).

In the BB against a raise, you should be playing any hand you'd play in LP for one bet -- with the exception of easily dominated offsuit broadways, like AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT, and JT. I don't generally play AJ there as well, but 64s is fine. Odd, no? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to need some convincing of this. #1- How do you figuire BB is a great position. Great PF yes, but after that you are in the second worst position (worst if SB folds) #2- Great immediate/implied odds PF with 6,4s. How do you figure?? And better than all those offsuit broadways?? How so? I'm a noob but common sense is telling me no. And the charts I have list 6,4s as one of the few folds against a raise from BB. Way behind any offsuit broadway.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to need some convincing of this. #1- How do you figuire BB is a great position. Great PF yes, but after that you are in the second worst position (worst if SB folds) #2- Great immediate/implied odds PF with 6,4s. How do you figure?? And better than all those offsuit broadways?? How so? I'm a noob but common sense is telling me no. And the charts I have list 6,4s as one of the few folds against a raise from BB. Way behind any offsuit broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great relative position, not necessarily great absolute position. In situations like this, people often check to the preflop raiser, so when you flop a vulnerable hand, you can checkraise to fold people out and get it HU. When you flop a good draw (OESD or flush), you bet and will often get a raise from the CO, allowing you to pump the pot.

As is, I think it's close right now -- 7.5:1 and I'm tempted to call on the button, and would maybe with T8s or 97s, down to maybe 86s. 64s is too low for me here, but it isn't terrible, and I wouldn't simply say "fold PF." With one more caller, I think it's a call.

I don't rely on charts to make these decisions very often; where did you get your chart from?

This isn't a head's up pot. You're looking for multiway action with a hand like this, and you're going to get it. Like I said initially, this is probably too loose, but it's close. I'm folding KJo, AJo, ATo, KQo -- before I fold 64s here; I hope you see why.

You can't simply rely on preflop charts to tell you what to play, and when. You need to know why. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=1193430 &Forum=f3&Words=64s&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=119 2512&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&n ewerval=12&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post1193430)

I know this is going to sound like a broken record, but have you read SSH? My comment about "any hand you'd play for one bet" is from there, though my reasoning is partly from there and partly from experience/2+2 advice.

Rob

[dellcosta]

What the heck, play it. Then slap yourself on the hand, and count it as "advertising hand," win or lose. You shouldn't be in the pot anyway with that particular hand from the blinds with only 3 other players. It's great that you had eight outs to a straight, but 1) there's not enough dough going into the pot to make that a positive expectation play, 2) you're playing against a possible flush draw. But you've come this far... you might as well use it as an opportunity to throw off your opponents and hopefully derive a bit of value that way.

[Carmine]

Thanks for the reply Entity. I appreciate the link also, however it didn't really help me to get a better understanding of starting hands. That is just an example of another 6,4 hand that hit the flop right (or am I missing something). Let me clearify that I do understand for the most part) why I am raising certain hands, limping with others and still folding others and how position alters these decisions.
My confusion comes in on starting hands like the small broadways. I raise or limp these more often than I should (if I follow the advice of the most 2'ers and other experts)I feel they make me money however. I also play some middle connectors, (90% suited), but much less often then my small broadways. My Reasoning? Since 90% of the players out there play every combination of Paint/rag, A/rag
etc. When my J,Qo pairs it's Q I'm good quite often because of the loose palyers. Of course I need to be careful of domination, but as long as I can get some reads, who limps with this, raises with that, yada, yada. I'm not afarid to release quickly if necessary.

With the small connecters if they pair I feel it is to easy to get burnt on the turn or river by that sole picture or ace when half the table is fishing. That is why I was surprised to read your comment about PF equity with the 6,4s hand. Maybe I'm wrong (more than likely). I would like to know your reasons why you prefer the small/middle connectors over the small broadways.

I do undersatnd your good position comment now. Betting out as first to act and letting the initial raiser help you jack up the pot. This is good position/situation for a strong draw or a made hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply Entity. I appreciate the link also, however it didn't really help me to get a better understanding of starting hands. That is just an example of another 6,4 hand that hit the flop right (or am I missing something). Let me clearify that I do understand for the most part) why I am raising certain hands, limping with others and still folding others and how position alters these decisions.
My confusion comes in on starting hands like the small broadways. I raise or limp these more often than I should (if I follow the advice of the most 2'ers and other experts)I feel they make me money however. I also play some middle connectors, (90% suited), but much less often then my small broadways. My Reasoning? Since 90% of the players out there play every combination of Paint/rag, A/rag
etc. When my J,Qo pairs it's Q I'm good quite often because of the loose palyers. Of course I need to be careful of domination, but as long as I can get some reads, who limps with this, raises with that, yada, yada. I'm not afarid to release quickly if necessary.

With the small connecters if they pair I feel it is to easy to get burnt on the turn or river by that sole picture or ace when half the table is fishing. That is why I was surprised to read your comment about PF equity with the 6,4s hand. Maybe I'm wrong (more than likely). I would like to know your reasons why you prefer the small/middle connectors over the small broadways.

I do undersatnd your good position comment now. Betting out as first to act and letting the initial raiser help you jack up the pot. This is good position/situation for a strong draw or a made hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just for the record (so you know), I don't advise calling with 64s in edthayer's situation here. I just don't think it's really bad -- probably -EV by a fraction of a SB. I'd call with 10:1 or better, like I probably would on the Button if everyone limped.

I don't play middle connectors from anywhere except the BB, though I've seen arguments presented for playing as low as T9o in the SB in unraised pots, and I think it's a convincing argument.

Basically what you're looking at in situations like this is a case of implied odds: with a hand like 64s, you look at the pot odds being offered (in my case, I think it was around 12:1) and the implied odds when you hit a large hand (investing 1SB for the chance that a flop that hits you hard will generate a lot of action). Those are the predominant considerations that come into play -- if there were more people in the pot, I'd advise edthayer to definitely call with a hand like this, because both the implied odds and the immediate pot odds of playing hands like this goes way up as more players enter the pot.

Does that make some bit of sense?

The reason you don't play hands like KJo against a raise, but I would play 76s, is because of the hand you're likely to hit. If you hit a pair with 64s, it's very easy to tell if your hand is good or if it isn't. However, when you do the same with KJo, it isn't nearly as easy to tell; you often end up paying a premium postflop for a second-best hand.

This is, of course, in a raised pot, where hands like top pair are less likely to take the pot down, and people will have odds to call on all sorts of draws. Head's up, I'll take KJo vs. 64s anyday. In a multiway, raised pot, however, I'm more keen on 64s -- as long as the pot will be very large. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hope this helps somewhat -- I'm not sure if it did.

Rob