JTs flops trips but I fold to a river 3-bet

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Good Mirage 10/20 game. pretty loose, not very aggressive and bakku is sitting to my right.

i'm utg and limp J /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif, a MP player raises. He coldcalls a lot, but I havent' seen him raise yet, which probably doesn't really mean much. the blinds fold. anyhoo i call and it's heads up.

flop: J /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check. He checks.

turn: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check. He bets. I call.

river: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check. He bets. I raise. He insta-3-bets. I fold.

[ErrantNight]

huh?

i've seen some pretty perceptive laydowns... but this?

i suppose by this line you assume he MUST have 99?

would you have called had he said, just 3-bet you, as opposed to insta-3-bets you? he couldn't have taken a read from, say, the KQo laydown and decided to respond to a play from you as if you were bluffing?

[digdeep]

What hands did you put him on? I think I call this with trips. The way you played this isn't characteristic of a J, and you finally raise a 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif on the river, he may simply be a little slow and be 3-betting with A9.

[Nate tha' Great]

The whole play of this hand is so strange that I can't see myself folding for one more bet.

Here's another solution: bet the river. If he raises you, you can make a determination as to whether it's best to call down or 3-bet based on action tells. But folding is out of the question unless he turns his cards face up. I know that you take pride in your ability to make tough, situation-based reads, but I don't think you've got enough information to go on here.

[bisonbison]

Chris, I don't like this at all.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
would you have called had he said, just 3-bet you, as opposed to insta-3-bets you? he couldn't have taken a read from, say, the KQo laydown and decided to respond to a play from you as if you were bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ]

differnt table different dude different game

[Harv72b]

If the MP player "doesn't raise much", I think we can safely assume that he's not playing a hand with a jack in it. Even AJs...a lot of people wouldn't raise with that, even first in from MP.

I think it's far more likely that he's got an overpair and has put you on two overcards, which would definitely explain all your check/calling. He thinks you're trying to steal the pot with a raise on the river, or he feels like he's got a read on you & can tell that you're bluffing, or whatever.

Either way, there are only so many hands that can beat you here:
AJ, KJ, QJ, 99, 55, 22, J9, J5, J2.

How many of those hands would you expect someone to raise preflop with? Forget calling the river, I'd have capped it.

[Rubeskies]

If you check/raised the turn and he 3-bet would you have folded there?

[ErrantNight]

alright, i'll put a *dripping sarcasm* note next time when i'm being sarcastic.

so ignoring my comment about the KQo hand, my question still stands.

the only read you provide is an "insta-" prior to the 3-bet... which would seem to imply you've believe he's got you cold. which leaves... from what i can tell, one possible hand that he'd have played that way... 99.

am I wrong? did you put him on something else? and regardless, what criteria did you put on this guy that made this river 3-bet a certainty to have you beat? and were you kicking yourself for playing this so passively?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
If you check/raised the turn and he 3-bet would you have folded there?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. river 3-bets mean so much more than turn 3-bets.

[bisonbison]

To clarify:

you make an out of nowhere checkraise on a blank river and fold when only one jack and three kinds of 99 beat you.

[BottlesOf]

Yuck.

[ErrantNight]

isn't it conceivable, just a little bit, that your opponent, not knowing you to be the god-fearing Daddy Cool that you are... noted rather astutely that you'd played this hand like a calling station, woke up for a bizarre c/r on a river blank and said "i'm not scared of this a*hole?" and threw it right back at you?

i say all of this with respect to your game, and with the full understanding of raises/3-bets on the end (and, more specifically, how infrequently they are bluffs), but if i didn't know you from a hole in the wall and i had an overpair or A9 suited and you pulled this nonsense on me i'd likely do the same.

[MoreWineII]

I don't play 10/20 often, but I gotta admit - I don't get it.

Any of it.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i'm mainly thinking of the flop check behind. what do you think he'd pull that with? i'm not preaching here, but i'm just asking a genuine question.

[sfer]

If you're going to play it like that you might as well muck face up.

[SCfuji]

callllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

[ErrantNight]

who knows? overcards? an underpair? Ax suited?

so you were trying to c/r on the flop.

once you missed that, you didn't want to c/r the turn because you wouldn't respect a 3-bet, so you were planning all along for a c/r on the river, fold to a 3-bet from the get go? assuming he didn't check behind AGAIN on the turn?

isn't this potentially disastrous? if you're thinking he'll do this while bluffing... why not just check/call, check/call, since he won't call the river raise in that circumstance.

[bisonbison]

If you're going to play it like that you might as well muck face up.

You might as well open your wallet and light a 20 dollar bill on fire, screaming "I didn't come here to make money, bitches!"

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm mainly thinking of the flop check behind. what do you think he'd pull that with? i'm not preaching here, but i'm just asking a genuine question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. Perhaps he has AA and thinks he's in a way-ahead, way-behind sort of situation. Perhaps he has AK, realizes that you have a strong propensity to check-raise, and wants to get to a showdown cheaply on a paired board. I've even encountered a few players who will make some strange check-behinds, and then shift gears and try and represent a monster on later streets if they sense that you can let go of a hand. You have trips quit trying to play like Tommy Angelo.

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]

You might as well open your wallet and light a 20 dollar bill on fire, screaming "I didn't come here to make money, bitches!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the way Mike Caro starts his sessions?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
You might as well open your wallet and light a 20 dollar bill on fire, screaming "I didn't come here to make money, bitches!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Please. Bitches is soooo 1998. Biatches of biznitches is preferred.

[bisonbison]

Please. Bitches is soooo 1998. Biatches of biznitches is preferred.

Dude, time to stop leaning on Sportscenter for your knowledge of slang.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, time to stop leaning on Sportscenter for your knowledge of slang.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't watch TV. It's from a two year old Tenacious D CD. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[bisonbison]

Twinky. <font color="white">Harold and Kumar go to White Castle</font>

[sfer]

<font color="white"> Don't eff with the yellow man. </font>

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
You have trips quit trying to play like Tommy Angelo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I mean, I completely agree.

I can think AA/KK/QQ on that board that might chicken out not wanting to make the decision of calling a C/R. When you only call the turn, he could easily put you on an underpair, and look at your river c/r as a move at the pot.

It's only $20 to call. I'm losing $20 left and right tonight, and I don't play $10/$20.