Experimental Heads-Up Hand: You vs. Dynasty

You and I are playing heads-up Hold'em. This is the very first hand we've played against each other.


Your knowledge of me comes from the 2+2 forums. My knowledge of you also comes from the 2+2 forums.


I'm on the button, in the small blind, and first to act pre-flop. I open with a raise. You are in the big blind and call.


The flop is: As,Kc,6s


You are first to act on the flop.


What is your strategy for playing the entire hand?

Dont tell me what i have doesnt matter.


I give you til the end of the year til you go bust.

I'd probably check-raise the flop and fire a dark shot on the turn. Then again, it might depend on my tickets. /images/smile.gif

I'd probably look at my cards first.

Well apparently mr. dynasty thinks hes so smart- it doesnt matter at all. You're real tricky buddy- but you're much more ignorant.

I well aware that I didn't put your cards in the original post.

I realize that. Cause you think they dont matter.

And you're ignorant- and think you're being so smart. And you're not. So maybe you should stop thinking you know everything- cause you dont. And maybe you should stop being so condesceding. Cause you are- and it doesnt help anyone.

I think on this kind of flop your hand really matters. A K high ragged board is probably different, but a board with a flushdraw, straightdraw and two big cards isnt a board where you can succesfully bluff a lot at IMO. .


Regards

Hi Dynasty.


I do not think there is any set-in-stone strategy. Obviously, much depends on my hand. Even more depends on how the hand is played by both.


But, since I am here, and for the fun of it here are some thoughts:


with any K: check call entire hand


with any A: check call on flop, then checkraise on turn, bet river


with flush draw: check raise on flop, bet turn, bet river if hit, otherwise check-fold


with nothing: bet the flop, check fold if called or raised


This is just of the top of my head. Of course I am interested in what you think.


By the way, if you are just writing this up to get information on how the great players (2+2ers) are playing you, that is one heck of a great way to do it. ;-)


See you tonight at the study group.


Greets, Erd.


PS: Thanks for dumping of the chips last time. Before we started I mean...

I think I'm either really gonna like this flop or hate it. So, if I like it, I will check/raise on the flop and plan on betting thru the river. If I don't I will check/fold on the flop.


I just looked at my cards and I have 6c6d, so I will definately check/raise the flop.

I am not going to go through all the possibilities, but:


If I had an Ace or King I would probably bet the flop:

1) You might not put me on an Ace or good King because I didn't 3-bet pre-flop and I may be semi-bluffing.

2) You are likely to make a defensive call with poor hands to prevent my flop bets from being immediately profitable.

3) To cover for my semi-bluff bets.


I would check the turn with an Ace or King hoping to induce a bluff. This is where you are likely to fold to a bet with a crappy hand and I want to prevent that. I am not really risking a free card because I expect you to semi-bluff with any reasonable draw. If you would take a free card you are probably drawing dead anyway. Also I save bets from better hands here.


If I get to the river I would either bet to prevent a free showdown, or check again to induce a bluff. Depends on the texture of the board and what you did on the turn.

I'm always a bit frustrated with answers to heads-up problems which eventually can be boiled down to "You have to play the player". While I certainly recognize the importance of knowing your opponent and how he plays (same is true in a ring game, especially when it becomes heads-up), heads-up play is not just "playing the player".


Expert heads-up play has to combine the proper use of the principles of heads-up poker with knowlege of your opponent. The problem is that nobody has ever defined what the principles of heads-up poker are. 2+2 hasn't published Heads-up Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players yet and doesn't look like it's going to in the near future.


For example, if you have top pair/top kicker on the flop, established hold'em poker theory has determined that betting or raising the flop is usually the correct play. (I know that example is a bit simple). Also, there are established guidelines for pre-flop play. In a ring game, you raise UTG with AA to ~TT, AK, and AQ pre-flop. There is no equivalent theory for heads-up play and I think this is the key reason why most people fall back on the "play the player" answer. The knowledge isn't out there to expertly analyze a heads-up situation. So, we are all throwing darts.


I posted this experimental hand to see if people could really "play the player". After all, if you could actually do it, why would you ever need to look at your cards?


I think it's interesting that in both my recent posted hands that people were drawn to the point of least information. In the Mirage 20-40 hand, I could not give full information about my opponent so people wanted to "play the player" and didn't substantially discuss the static or relative strength of my Kd5d on the 9s8s5s flop. In the experimental hand, you had excellent information of the two players (you and me) but most wanted to "play the cards". Obviously, you need to have all the information. I just wanted to see if anybody could make a "play the player" arguement to the experimental hand.


I think the state of heads-up hold'em theory is approximately where regular hold'em theory was before David Sklansky publsihed Hold'em Poker back in 1976.


There is far theory that we don't know than we do know.

since the range of hands is much wider in SH and the aggression level depends on what the player will bet with. whether he's likely to bluff and semi bluff or not or if he only bets if he has it. it makes it more a personal game. and the more knowledge you have about a player, i think, will benefit more in a SH or HU game than a full game. because your dealing closer with just that player than with 5+others. its much easier to define hands on a full game than a shorthanded or HU game.


in your example....


i know your not the typical SH player i run into. you raised preflop. i would expect you to test me on the flop depending on your read of me. if you were more str8 forward, full game type of player, id be less likely to call a flop or turn raise from you. but since i know your capable of semi bluffing and testing the opponent, i may have to call it out if i have any of the flop. but id likely test you on the way. you could be raising on a very wide range of hands. some players still have a narrow range that they raise with.


if i was in this hand with you, and i had any piece of this flop, even say its a rainbow or 2 one, id suspect we might test each other til part way thru the turn. then end up calling out anyway. but add to that betting rythyms and tells, and that information is even more valuable.


why wont a book be written? because there's too many examples to cover. the range is too wide for opponents youd face. some players advocate always calling down with mid pair or even small pair. why even bother with reading opponents then? if they play pkt 9s theyve already decided to see the showdown. not to mention theyd never lay down AA. which can be a very tough laydown in SH and HU. this is only an example of some players, not all, by any means...


SH and HU has alot more feel to it pertaining to your opponents and how you read them than you may be giving credit for. and you are at a huge advantage if you have a better feel of your opponent than he has of you. i think it comes more in to play in these types of games.


just the surface of many ideas...


b

Sometimes you miss the boat, but you've really found something here. Your analogy to full game holdem is spot on.

Sometimes you miss the boat


Be sure to point this out every time. I know I'm always kind enough to point it out to other posters.

I'm going to go back to my original answer--check-raise the flop and dark bet the turn. I would do this with most Aces, some Kings, some flush draws, probably some other hands, and maybe with nothing. With most Kings, I'm going to check and call and hope you bluff off your money. With a set of sixes, I'd probably check-call the flop and check-raise the turn, unless I somehow sensed that you'd check behind me on the turn.


I would like to point out that the above scenario could never happen. Games don't start out two-handed and then become full; they start out full and become two-handed. I would have played with you for some length of time, probably come to the conclusion that you could play a little, and passed on the opportunity to play you heads-up. If I knew who you were, I wouldn't want to play against you for any significant stakes. If you want to play a $100 freeze-out for fun some time, I'll look you up when I'm in Vegas (maybe next year).