Can you be too much of a TAG?

[Bigwig]

I'm fairly tight, but when I play hands, I'm often raising. Also, I'm often betting most flops regardless if I hit or not when I'm the one who raised it preflop. So I'm the guy who's high pressure. However, I think that as an SNG progresses, players will begin to bluff back at me. And often, I'll have to fold. How do you determine when to draw a line at your aggressive post flop play? I mean, they know I'm going to bet, so I think I set myself up for a trap at times.

Suggestions?

[Bigwig]

This question may be too broad.

Let me give what I think would be a typical example.

25/50 level, 7 handed.

UTG (t2000) limps.
Hero (t2500) is dealt A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero raises to 225
All fold to BB who calls, UTG limper calls.

Flop is Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to Hero.

Hero bets 550.
BB folds, UTG calls.

Uh oh, now I'm in trouble. Even with an A or K, on the turn or river, I might be beat. Or, he could have a mid pp, and just seeing what I do on the turn. But I no longer have the stack to bet large enough to force out his mediocre hand, without putting my entire tournament at risk.

You understand this scenario?

I would also likely bet like this if I had AQ or KK, I would add, and wouldn't mind the call. I'd likely be pushing the turn. So when I hit my cards, my style REALLY pays off. But when I miss, my image as an aggressive post-flop player can really bite me in the a**.

[swede123]

Bigwig,

I totally see where you are coming from, and I run into this type of player quite often. Personally I'm new to the game, and aggressiveness is something I frequently struggle with. As you know, most of the SNG players out there are like me, they'll raise the min amount, coldcall many of these mini raises etc, but once someone swoops in and drops 500 chips in a pot like you mentioned the vast majority will back off. In fact, I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that 90% of the average 10+1/20+2 players on PP would respect a 200 chip raise just as much as a 500 chip raise. Maybe I'm showing my inexperience and weakness here, but it seems to me that when bluffing only commit the lowest amount necessary to seem convincing.

Cheers,

Swede

[adanthar]

I've had this problem before, and still do to an extent, but I've changed my play a little bit to compensate. I might've moved too far towards weak/tight, but screw it, it works for now.

In your example, I'd raise to 150 (I don't like UTG limps in general and I want this pot smaller), and then bet 2/3 of the pot (~250) which is my standard bet size. If two blanks hit from there, I'll just check the turn/fold the river.

I've never found overbetting the big pot with A high, especially into a big stack, to be a good idea.

[TheDrone]

I'm more of a STAG, where the S stands for Selective. Not sure if I just coined that term or if it's been used before. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

There are valid times to loosen or tighten up preflop and postflop play based on the changing game conditions. Definitely not a new concept, but I bring it up because it sounds like your postflop play is bordering on predictable. Just like you are selective preflop in the hands that you play, you should also be selective postflop although predictable aggression has it's time and place too (e.g. bullying with a big stack on the bubble).

If you are facing weak tight competition your approach is fine, but it needs to adjust based on the game conditions. It's definitely a problem if they know you are going to bet most of the time because smart players will do things like check-raise out of position with a hand they would normally bet out.

The example you give depends on your read of the opponent as well as your image. Since it was checked to you in position, betting out here is usually the best play (that's the way I would play it) especially when you have outs. I will bet a missed flop when checked to me in position much more than if I am out of position because it reasons that my opponent is more likely to fold.

How often your missed flop bets are getting check-raised or called should help you determine when to tighten up. Also you can scale back the bet amount when no obvious draws exist. Your opponent will still fold if he missed, and you reduce the downside if he has you beat.

[citanul]

Amongst other things you might want to try (the other things possibly noted in a second) you might want to try checkraising somewhat often, that way, when you miss, you are not always going to have to bet out. You can check and sometimes they will check too.

Your question seems to be, loosely interpretted "I play NL very badly. My opponents seem to pick up on this. Help."

Now, to be nice, you did say that you play badly in a very describable way. That is, you always follow up your bets, do it in large size, and don't adjust to game conditions.

My suggestions would be:

1) adjust to game situations. your strategy of "well, if i'm in preflop, since i raised, i might as well go to the felt or as close as my opponents let me" seems very perilous.

2) don't always follow up your raises with bets. check fold sometimes. check raise sometimes. slowplay occasionally.

3) pay attention ot the size of your bets. if betting the pot now would make the pot such that if your opponent calls, he would be pot committed to call an all in from you on the next street, don't always bet the pot. sometimes the difference could be just 100 chips here or there, and the difference between betting 1/2 of 2/3 of the pot on the flop is likely to be small in terms of making your opponent fold when he doesn't have a hand.

when you said "i'm the high pressure guy," it felt like you felt like you meant that you always put max pressure on your opponents. your style, however, seems like to the contrary, it puts the max pressure on yourself.

citanul

[texasrattlers]

You are the type of opponent that gives me the most trouble at the table. Maybe just a mental thing, I get impatient w/ your style of play and play back, usually at the wrong time; or I just fold my bets and blinds away to your stack /images/graemlins/frown.gif). So, I would recommend you become much more passive /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tubbyspencer]

[ QUOTE ]
This question may be too broad.

Let me give what I think would be a typical example.

25/50 level, 7 handed.

UTG (t2000) limps.
Hero (t2500) is dealt A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero raises to 225
All fold to BB who calls, UTG limper calls.

Flop is Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to Hero.

Hero bets 550.
BB folds, UTG calls.

Uh oh, now I'm in trouble. Even with an A or K, on the turn or river, I might be beat. Or, he could have a mid pp, and just seeing what I do on the turn. But I no longer have the stack to bet large enough to force out his mediocre hand, without putting my entire tournament at risk.

You understand this scenario?

I would also likely bet like this if I had AQ or KK, I would add, and wouldn't mind the call. I'd likely be pushing the turn. So when I hit my cards, my style REALLY pays off. But when I miss, my image as an aggressive post-flop player can really bite me in the a**.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this shows the value of ONLY raising 3x the bb (instead of almost 5x as you do here). In other words, a pot size bet on the flop (when you miss it, as you do 2 out of 3 times) costs you less, and you gain just as much info when they check call.

[Bigwig]

Thanks for the replies.

A couple of notes:

1) That's not a pot sized bet on the flop. The pot at this point in the example would be 800, so a 550 bet is about 2/3 of the pot. Regardless, I understand your point.

2) The preflop raise is 4.5BB, but that's because of the limper and the low blinds at this level. My standard raise on Stars is 4BB at levels 1&2, 3.5 at level 3, and 3 from thereon.

3) Citanul -- I don't play NL poorly. Unless you count an ROI over 30% at the $30 level poor. I'm just trying to improve. Never satisfied, am I.


/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Unarmed]

Big, I think your auto betting after a PF raise is perfectly fine with 1 opponent. Just be more selective against more than 1.

The way I look at it is: (after I raise PF and whiff)

1 opponent - auto bet
2 opponents - read/board dependent
3+ opponents - check/fold unless given odds to draw to my O/Cs