My best Tommy Angelo Impression

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Passive semi-tight 10/20 Mirage hand. Nobody in this table other than me has raised at all, let alone do any 3-betting. Bakku is sitting to my right. Other than me there are likely no other winning players on this table. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyhoo, I raise UTG with KQo. Folded to MP who 3-bets me. The blinds fold and it's back to me heads up. I look around the table to see if anybody else is in the pot and stare at the 3 neat little stacks of chips on the table and decide that I don't want to put in the other stack to match that and fold. Bakku looks at me funny and I tell him, "Dude, it was a good fold."

[lu_hawk]

Do you think this should be a default play? I always hate calling that extra bet when I get 3-bet and hold KQo. I'm usually just going to check and fold the flop anyway so why not save the money?

[CanKid]

I don't raise KQ utg often, but I would call here if I did.

[JimRivett]

I don't know if Tommy would allow the only winning player at the table to sit on his right. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Jim

[pokerkai]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think this should be a default play? I always hate calling that extra bet when I get 3-bet and hold KQo. I'm usually just going to check and fold the flop anyway so why not save the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

if the guy is as tight as a virgin sphincter, i agree, its a good fold.

but definitely not the default play

[Malcom Reynolds]

CDC is emulating this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1169406&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) play.

[Danenania]

I wouldn't make a play like this live against straightforward players for the reason that I want them to continue playing straightforwardly. The nice thing about live play is that often when that scare card hits the river and a predictable opponent raises, you can find a muck pretty easily even in a big pot. But when you are seen making weird folds like this, you have to consider that you might induce normally unimaginative players to get a little tricky (if only in emulation) and that can compromise a fairly significant edge.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhoo, I raise UTG with KQo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy would raise UTG with that hand? Hmm.

Interesting hand/read, I'd still have a hard time not seeing the flop though.

Given that you were the only person raising, I can imagine the surprised looks on the faces at the table when you fold for one bet. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sthief09]

I was playing bakku the other day online. I raised with KQo UTG and he 3-bet to my immediate left. I put the autofold button. the BB capped it, so it wasn't anything out of the orginary, but I told him that I had autofold on anyway

[Ralph Wiggum]

For anyone:

If you raised KQo UTG, and someone 3-bet you from MP to get it HU, which hands would MP have to have, so folding KQo for one more bet is the correct play?

Some data (may be insufficient/irrelevant):
Hands (approx. win %) vs. KQo assuming showdown:
AA (86%)
KK (90%)
QQ (67%)
AK (73%)

[spamuell]

I was playing bakku the other day online. I raised with KQo UTG and he 3-bet to my immediate left. I put the autofold button. the BB capped it, so it wasn't anything out of the orginary, but I told him that I had autofold on anyway

Do you think this is worse against someone you know because if they ever 3-bet you pre-flop and you call but don't cap, they can narrow your hand range down pretty quickly?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think this is worse against someone you know because if they ever 3-bet you pre-flop and you call but don't cap, they can narrow your hand range down pretty quickly?


[/ QUOTE ]

In heads up situations once its one more bet back to you, capping or not capping sometimes doesnt' mean much because sometimes a tricky smart player will
a) cap to over-represent his/her hand
b) just call to under-represent his/her hand

[Sarge85]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong.

If someone I know raises, and I know their raising standards, I would re-raise with 88-99.

Do you think he would have?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think this is worse against someone you know because if they ever 3-bet you pre-flop and you call but don't cap, they can narrow your hand range down pretty quickly?


[/ QUOTE ]

In heads up situations once its one more bet back to you, capping or not capping sometimes doesnt' mean much because sometimes a tricky smart player will
a) cap to over-represent his/her hand
b) just call to under-represent his/her hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't just say heads-up.

[bicyclekick]

If I was never going to see the players again I'd fold like you did, but given the metagame considerations I would have called unless these guys truly aren't going to put any thought into this hand and never consider it later in the session.

How freaking weak does that look?

[Bob T.]

Do you think this should be a default play? I always hate calling that extra bet when I get 3-bet and hold KQo. I'm usually just going to check and fold the flop anyway so why not save the money?

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=67507
pokenum -h as ah - kc qd
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ah 1475740 86.18 230959 13.49 5605 0.33 0.863
Kc Qd 230959 13.49 1475740 86.18 5605 0.33 0.137

Its probably a good fold if you can narrow your opponents hands down to AA, and KK.

[Alobar]

I hate this fold. Especially since you are the only player at the table raising. It means you are probably beat this hand, but pay the 1 lousy bet for image sake so that you can keep raising and know where you stand. You are at a completely predictable table, don't invite that to change by making a very strange play everyone at the table is going to notice.

[Trix]

You think the fold will make them 3bet you more ?

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi Chris,

I am so flattered!

I hope you don't mind if I point out a couple tiny spots in your otherwise indistinguishable impression that could maybe still possibly use just a touch more refinement. :-)

"I raise UTG with KQo."

I fold KQo UTG in the typical Mirage 10/20. The way to get the most out of that field's honesty is to act last on every street. The profit in that game exists specifically because you can trust their check and bets. But they have to act before you on all streets in order to tell you what they have.

But let's say I raised.

"Folded to MP who 3-bets me. The blinds fold and it's back to me heads up."

I think it's very cool that you were even able to make the fold at all and I do think it was a very good fold all things considered, but FWIW, I would never fold here. I like the way KQ plays out if I flop a pair and the opponent has a pocket pair of jacks or lower. In general, in that field, playing checky cally when I flop a pair will very often get an honest bet out of the opponent on the river. He'll check behind when I have the best hand, and he'll bet when I don't. Of those times he bets the river, I think I'll have a fair shot of folding when it's right to, often enough, to make the preflop call retroactively less bad.

"I look around the table ..."

Next time I'm sure you'll be ready to muck in tempo. :-)

"Bakku looks at me funny and I tell him, 'Dude, it was a good fold.'"

And to keep a secret. Then we'll be like twins!


Tommy

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Then we'll be like twins!

[/ QUOTE ]

Being possibly the only person on these forums to have had the good fortune to have met both of you, that would be pretty cool.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hi tommy,

i'm flattered you even read my post and even had the time to respond.

to be perfectly honest, i really can't remember the last time i did this kind of fold, but for image sakes i usually call the 3-bet. but at this moment i really didn't care because i'm not playing with these guys ever again, and nobody on this table would dare play back at me because i'm so likely to throw the n+1 bet back at them. this guy had only one of 3 hands, AA-QQ, 2 of which would put me in a world of hurt.

at the time i made the fold i was like "yea i'm going to post this hand and get flamed for making a tommy fold especially when i'm not tommy." but i'm glad that you appreciated it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Then we'll be like twins!

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm far too good looking for that to be possible. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bisonbison]

I think I live about 5 minutes from tommy, but I don't think we'll meet til I A) pay for lessons or B) make the local mid stakes games.

[scrub]

Speaking of meeting local posters, I just realized the PM I sent you about hitting Bay 101 on Saturday probably didn't get delivered...

I'll probably be there next Saturday if anyone's interested in meeting up.

scrub