mk420

Here is another hand I had from last nights shorthanded study session. I won the hand, however I played it poorly on every street.


I raise first in with JJ Azreal reraises I call.


Flop 8d Jh 3h


I check Azreal bets, I call. I anticpated checkraising him on the turn especialy if a heart doesnt drop.


Turn 8d Jh 3h 8h


I have a boat:) I check Azreal bets, I call. Should I have raised? I wanted to check raise the river.


River 8d Jj 3h 8h 8c


I check, Azreal checks.


Azreal turns over AK off, I take it down with my JAcks full over eights. I know I played the hand completely wrong in every street. I thought I would certainly get a chack raise off on the river, especially if Azreal had a pocket pair. Should I have raised the flop turn or bet the river?

Does this type of play enhance or diminsh my "image'?


Go ahead flame away, I played the hand horribly. As Dynasty would say "congratulations you managed to play every street wrong".


Thanks

MK


Thanks

MK

I would likely cap preflop. I would play the flop fast, yes, to actually hide my hand. Any pocket pair will give action. Even AK and AQ could give action, who wouldnt give as much action on the turn.


Raise the turn. A lot of heart will pay off, as well as overpairs or a jack.


Sigh...at least bet the river. I agree with Dynasty.


Regards

#1 Pre-flop it is debateable whether to cap it preflop depends on your opponent and how agressive their 3 betting standards are, but not a mistake either way.


#1 On the flop BET, with 6 bets in the pot already, AK AQ, A8, AJ will raise and any pairs over the 8 are staying for sure, KQ KJ should stay as well as many other hands.


If raised you can raise or call and go for the checkraise on the turn against an agressive opponent.


If its checked on the turn you will almost surely get a call on the river see below.


You also have to constantly vary how you play "The Nuts".


Another way is to try for the checkraise on the flop. If they didn't bet like they didn't you HAVE to bet the turn and river. What could they possible have that is worth 3 betting preflop and checkraising you on the turn or river???? AJ or A8 suited? or QQ KK AA. Get your money in this isn't a full table, AK should call all the way to the river, they won't only if they put you with a J or an 8. You could have a small pair, or AQ or A10 A9 A8 for all they know.

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I don't really know Azrael but against most good mid-limit shorthanded players anything worth 3 betthing, the worst they coul dhave is probably AK, AQ or 1010 and all of these are still medium strength hands all the way to the river especially with a non threateneing board like this one.


In this case I would bet/raise at every opportunity, as they will stay right till the end.


In this hand especially with AK the worst you should end up, even against a tight opponent is 3 bets postflop. If you can't even count on those than you are playing way too passively for shorthanded play and your opponents have too great a read on your cards.


Alternatively you can reraise (if raised) on the flop and bet the turn and river and they may not call the river bet, but you made 5 bets already.


You have to vary your play, but one thing is clear, you have to play a hand like this AGRESSIVELY. The rule for slowplaying is you only slowplay to give your opponenet a chance to pick up a decent calling second best hand. The 3 bet on the flop should tell you they have decent enough 2nd best hand to call at least a flop and turn bet.

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Finally, I think you might consider your preflop raising standards too tight especially in a shorthanded game if you fear a 3 betting opponent putting you on a great hand with a non threatening flop like that one. What is the minimum you'd be willing to raise UTG in a 5 handed table??

You may also want to take a look at the way I played JJ which flopped a set of jacks in our session last night as well, maybe even post it.


Also I'm still waiting for you to email me a hand or two from last night which you would suggest being played differently.

if you c/r the turn, he's gone. hed be hard pressed to call. you got more out of him than maybe you think.

the only other place wouldve been the flop which would be to bet out, then call a raise. c/r might be too strong here depending on how he reads you. he may drop.


b

I thought my opponent might have had AK or AQ suited. When the heart dropped on the turn I filled up and my opponent could have very easily caught the flush and been drawin dead. I wanted to wait until the river to show my strength. I think the main mistake I made was not betting the river. Perhaps Azreal would have checkraised me.


I have reread The Theory of Poker's chapters on inducing a bluff and head to head on the end. I thought for sure Azreal might have tried to put a move on me with that type of board. I attempted to induce a bluff. The only thing I succeeded to do was lose a few bets.


I don't know if Azreal would have called a bet on the turn, or even a bet on the river with AK off.


I think I should have bet the flop and then called if he raised, then check call or check raise the turn.


As far as Jordans questions go for my UTG raising standards, as anything else in this game it depends. I have raised with A8 suited I have raised UTG with 33. I like to vary my play, and these study sessions are the perfect place to vary my play.


Depending on who has the blinds and the button also determines what hands I will raise UTG with.


I also made some silly mistakes last night slowplaying pocket Kings and Queens. The biggest problem I encounter in a "live" ring game is I play too straight forward. Usually when I threebet, it means Kings or Queens.Perhaps I should start threebetting with J,J or 10,10. I bet when I have the best of it, I fold when I don't. Sometimes I raise my draws, sometimes I don't. Like anything else it depends on my opponents and my image at the time.


Best Wishes and thanks for the feedback

MK

I like bernie's analysis on this hand.


You might have scared me off if you played too aggressively. I probably would've folded to a bet on the turn and I know I would have folded to a check/raise. I was thinking of checking the turn, but I didn't want to risk getting bluffed out by King high on the river /images/wink.gif

By playing the way you did you have NO read on what your opponent had, in fact with QQ, KK, AA he probably would have checkraised you on the river. With those hands though he would have called and raised you on the flop and/or the turn, and you would have made more.


If you truly put him on AQ or AK(although totally blind as you know nothing from his play the bet could mean any hand as you show weakness by checking) then your opponent has no respect for your hand evident by them betting the turn.


Now if you checkraise on the turn an opponent who gives you a lot of respect, might fold now( I know nothing about Azrael's play).


However, had your opponent considered you dangerous and capable of making a checkraise move on the turn they may have even called your checkraise and a bet on the river putting you on AQ, A10 A9 or even worse, and this again depends on what they have seen you raise with in the past.


I still have no idea why you would EVER want to have a table image, nor play straitforward and tight at a shorthanded table(unless you are up against all maniacs or calling stations) most of the good players I have seen at shorthanded tables I classify as agressive, dangerous and unpredictable(I only played a few hands with dynasty but I already think he has those three characteristics) as well as having good card reading skills.


The biggest lesson I had to learn( I am still learning, but WillyG opened my eyes) to move up to higher limit shorthanded tables was, you have to be WAY more loose, agressive and vary your agressions more than at a full table. If you aren't your opponents will run over you. Even if your thinking and reads for a full ring game are excellent your opponents are still going to make more loose and more agressive plays and do what you would call "a move at the wrong time" even though it was actually correct, given that the quality of the expected winning hands are lower, and the chance of someone having a foldable hand is much greater.


I look forward to playing you again wednesday or next monday.

I figured the best chance I had of winning the most amount from you was to let you bet my hand for me.


You know the way I play, and if I bet into your preflop raise, I had to have at least AJ or a set of eights.


I didn't think you would have called a river bet.


At least I don't feel as stupid now.


Thanks

See you tomorrow


MK

If your opponent can put you on that big a hand everytime you lead into him, you are not betting enough hands........come mk420.....that sort of reasoning should be routine.

"...you have to be WAY more loose, ..."


I strongly disagree. Sure, it's inevitable to be looser in a shorthanded game than in a 10 handed game, but the main mistake I see players that normally play 10-handed make is that they do exactly what you advice here.


In a 10-handed game a large chunck of your profit comes from maximizing winnings due to incorrect calling by your opponents and saving bets when you have the worst. In a shorthanded game however, your main profit comes IMO from your opponents incorrectly folding. That are HUGE mistakes that your opponents make. To be able to let your opponents make these mistakes its IMO very important to be tight. It reinforces your strong image, and put you in far less troublesome situations which hurt your image. Preserving this strong images, and having a better chance to let opponents incorrectly fold has also a lot to do with position. That's why position is so incredibly important shorthanded. As well as tightness.


Regards

Ikke,


I completely agree with your analysis. I knew the player I was involved in the hand with. If I bet he would have folded his AK off. I let him make the mistake of betting. Yes the move appeared weak, however players will respect my calls as well as my raises.


I do not agree that a player must loosen up more in a shorthanded game. Hands go up in value such as medium pocket pairs, however I would never play loose simply because I was involved in a shorthanded game.


Best Wishes


MK

Good points, this is exactly why you want a tight straight forward image, especially if it's wrong.


In short handed games often nobody will have much of anything, so stealing pots is much more important than in full ring games.

I don't think there is much wrong with mk420's game, - he's no fish out there. The reason I could read him is he raised preflop, I reraised, and he's still in there calling on the flop and turn.

When I say "loose" I am referring to calling down all the way a bettor/raiser with AK. If you always make that laydown or always laydown third pair an agressive opponent is going to RUN right over you.


"Loose" may be sometimes calling and/or raising with a low second pair and gutshot straight draw when there are only 3 bets in the pot, and button bets in a 3 way pot.


The point is, if you just play proper pot odds like you base most of your decisions on in a full ring game, you are forgetting the extra outs you get by your opponent folding and assuming they have you beaten and is often incorrect.


I am not saying become a FISH! but you must loosen up what you consider to be the best hand, and the probability your opponent has you beat.

The can I beat top pair good kicker question in a full game just won't work in a five handed game.

"I do not agree that a player must loosen up more in a shorthanded game"


you cant play your same standards in a shorthanded game a a full game. youll get waxed. your not taking into consideration probable holdings for the other players. by keeping your normal fullgame mode in a shorthanded game, your also easier to read if you dont change. for instance, there are many more hands playable UTG in short than in full. your leaving alot of profit by not utilizing the full spectrum.


b

Bernie,


I agree that in shorthanded situations a different range of hands need to get played. I just won't go too crazy like calling a preflop raise from a strong player with an A5 suited or a 23 suited. In my humble opinion, those hands will lose more than they win in the long run.


UTG I will raise with an A 10 offsuit, in a live game I throw that hand away. I will limp with KJ or K10 from UTG again, those are hands I normally dump preflop.


Conversly I do not think playing ANY Ace King or Queen with a weak kicker could show a profit.


An example of the way I have altered my play would be to raise or reraise with any pocket pair 7's or better, raising from the button in an unraised pot with Ax suited.


The problem with that is players alter their style of play and tend to slowplay overpairs.


I just started playing shorthanded, however I do like it and hopefully one day I will have enough experience to play in a "live" shorthanded game.


Best wishes and thanks for the responses. Bernie, I think you have made some very good points.


MK

Acehigh/Azriel


Excellent point. I believe that my image is one of a tight aggressive player.I also attempt to make creative plays.


The hand we were involved in was the classic, what does he have, what does he think I have, what does he think that I think that he has.


I put you on something vunerable to the flop, like two overcards..or you bet the nut flush draw.


When you bet the third heart and the board paired. I figured you didnt have the flush, because you would have tried to induce a bluff by checking the turn and raising me on the river.


I think that these posts are excellent ways of developing our thought processes. The group session is working very well, especially with everyone commenting. The only way we can get anything out of the session is to continue to debate the hands and post our thoughts.


Look forward to seeing you all tonight.


MK /images/tongue.gif

"I just won't go too crazy like calling a preflop raise from a strong player with an A5 suited "


a strong player in shorthanded is differnt than a full game. he could have a wide range of hands he raising with here. A5s is a nice starting hand in shorthanded. you also have the str8 potential. and you could very well have the best hand. many players raise UTG with hands like JTs right off here. even J9s. it sounds loose, but for this type of game, its not. with A5s, i actually might be inclined to reraise back at him with this hand.


HOWEVER, playing tight at first and watching and noting their raising standards can help show you how loose you can go. once you have an idea of their starters, its much easier.


when ive been on a 5 handed table, i could usually pick out the guy whos a little too tight, and showing a little too much respect. He's playing it like a ring game. and missing many opportunities. how do i play those types, i generally am more careful when theyre in. the hands theyre playing are a little narrower range, especially for this type of game.


not saying this is you, i havent seen you play, but something to watch for.


"Conversly I do not think playing ANY Ace King or Queen with a weak kicker could show a profit"


on a 5 or less table, i will generally play any A, or any suited K. and im usually raising with them. forcing the others to react. 1 pair is a great hand in shorthanded regardless of kicker. then its a matter of defining the other players hand to see how far to go with it...if the table has only usually no more than 3 seeing the flop, look for more hands that do well 3 way. hence the A/K high hands.


that said, start out tight, but ease out some line a little as you get more comfortable. its a very different game starting handwise. youll get a feel of which hands play good here.


i learned alot on play money 5 handed tables. they tend to play alot like cash games suprisingly. i didnt have to adjust tighter too much *though i did a little though, but it really wasnt that drastic* to crossover to the cash. then its a matter of adjusting to the players. you go either tighter, or looser from there.


if your doing the study groups, then its even a better spot to try new things. because its free and theyll be playing even more like a cash game. take one session and just go nuts for awhile. throw in some bluffs you normally wouldnt try. just to see how it works. it wont cost ya anything, and it will help see how the others react a little.


just some ideas...


b