A little bit of preflop quiz...

[AdamL]

UTG is a solid, tight aggressive player.

1)

a) You are dealt QQ in the BB.

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?

b) You are dealt JJ in the BB

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?

c) You are dealt TT in the BB.

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?

d) You are dealt 44 in the BB.

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?


--------
2)


a) UTG raises. You have TT on the Button. All fold to you. What is your action?

b) UTG raises. You have 44 on the Button. All fold to you. What is your action?

c) UTG raises. You have TT on the button. Two loose players cold-call. What is your action?

d) UTG raises. You have 44 on the button. Two loose players cold-call. What is your action?


There is no exact right or wrong answer, but some are much more correct than others. This mainly is testing for consistency in your thought process...

Adam

[joker122]

these are all really easy 3 bets with a few exceptions.

1a = call
2b = fold
2d = call

[AdamL]

You should briefly post reasoning.

[Lansing]

I don't think they are easy 3 bets at all...

[joker122]

my reasoning is that i thought i was in the HUSH forum.

i still 3bet all of those hands actually. they definitely aren't easy though.

[BottlesOf]

1a- 3bet
1b- 3bet
1c- call/3bet-depending on image
1d- fold

2a- 3bet
2b- fold
2c- 3bet
2d- depends on the blinds, I'll probably fold, I want another ccer.

[Gatts]

[ QUOTE ]
1a- 3bet
1b- 3bet
1c- call/3bet-depending on image
1d- fold

2a- 3bet
2b- fold
2c- 3bet
2d- depends on the blinds, I'll probably fold, I want another ccer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]
1a- 3bet
1b- 3bet
1c- call/3bet-depending on image
1d- fold

2a- 3bet
2b- fold
2c- 3bet
2d- depends on the blinds, I'll probably fold, I want another ccer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What range of hands are you putting UTG on?

[private joker]

From the BB, I'll reraise QQ and JJ, but just call TT and 44. Why? Because with TT and 44, not only am I out of position, but my opponent is a TAG and I won't get much action if he misses the flop, yet I'll lose a lot if he hits it. (I'm assuming his raising standards in EP include big pairs and suited broadway -- making TT a weaker hand than JJ -- and do not include 99 or 88). Reraising opens me up for a cap and since I'm BB I obviously have to lead the flop.

On the button, I'll reraise TT and 44 when it's folded to me, because while I'm still isolated against him, I like my position better and I should be able to tell if he's got an overpair by his flop action. With 2 cold callers between us, I will cold-call TT and 44. I'd like more dead money from loose cold-callers with I hit my set (not 3-betting PF often causes them to bet and call the flop more); and when I don't hit my set, I'm in position which allows me to play better on the flop.

My predicted grade on this quiz: B-

[BottlesOf]

AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, AKo-AJo, KQo. Plus a few percent of the time he'll have something else.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a solid, tight aggressive player.

a) You are dealt QQ in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
b) You are dealt JJ in the BB

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
c) You are dealt TT in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it matters much.

[ QUOTE ]
d) You are dealt 44 in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call. Flop set.

[ QUOTE ]
a) UTG raises. You have TT on the Button. All fold to you. What is your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
b) UTG raises. You have 44 on the Button. All fold to you. What is your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold.

[ QUOTE ]
c) UTG raises. You have TT on the button. Two loose players cold-call. What is your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet for value.

[ QUOTE ]
d) UTG raises. You have 44 on the button. Two loose players cold-call. What is your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call.

[BottlesOf]

In 2d you're getting 3.5-1, maybe more sometimes, maybe worse occasionally. We'll call it 4:1. We can expect to make 3.5 BB's when we hit it?

[Lansing]

1a- 3bet, because I likely have the best hand and I want to discourage him from drawing to an A or a K on the turn when I come out firing on the flop.
1b- 3bet for exactly the same reasons as 1a--I likely have the best hand.
1c- This is the hardest of the questions, imho. I call and only bet a 9 high board or a set. My thinking here is that I want to hit a set to bust a big hand or get missed overcards betting at me. At best I am in a race here. I am going to have to be pretty sure I am ahead in that race before I start committing a lot of money to the pot, so 3 betting is out of the question. There is a huge difference between 1010 and JJ.
1d- Fold. 8.3-1 to flop a set, and at best you're in a race where you cannot be sure which overs beat you.

2a- The tens need a 3 bet this time to isolate the UTG player. Depending on the exact player UTG, I raise or fold. Calling is out of the question.
2b- Easy fold because even if the blinds both called the odds aren't there to try for a set (plus, sets lose too).
2c- 3 bet. I will need a set to win, in all likelihood, though I may not. I want the blinds out so that if miss it, I still have a chance to win the hand. I also get a free card off of a scary flop, and pick up a draw on the turn (or the set).
2d- Call. Implied odds makes the set worth chasing here.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
In 2d you're getting 3.5-1, maybe more sometimes, maybe worse occasionally. We'll call it 4:1. We can expect to make 3.5 BB's when we hit it?

[/ QUOTE ]

My orientation is the Party 15/30 game. I'm quite satisfied that I'll make enough when I flop a set in that game to make this call profitable and then some, but that game features essentially perfect conditions for playing pocket pairs (e.g. opponents who significantly overplay their hands postflop).

[AdamL]

Ok guys, here goes.

Whatever you do with TT, (except in the case of UTG mixing up his game raising stuff like 98s occasionally, or raising with 99), you're doing pretty much the same thing with 44 in #1.

1)

a) 3 bet. Equity/Best hand, etc.

b) 3 bet. You're beating TT, AKs - AJs, KQs still.

c) 3 bet. You're still beating two big cards, which is by far the most common you'll find UTG raising with here. (He'll raise with big pocket pairs too obviously, but will have those a smaller percent of the time.)

d) 3 bet or fold. Be more inclined to fold this than TT if UTG occasionally mixes up his play by open raising UTG with stuff like 98s. However, there really is no big difference between this and TT. Your preflop equity is almost as high against two overcards. I see no reason to just call this and yet 3-bet with TT. Because you are the last to act and are guaranteed a heads-up pot (with probably equity edge), you should do the same thing as with TT.

I think an argument can be made for just calling with TT and 44, to offset the times you are up against a bigger pocket pair. Does that make any sense?

2.

a) 3-bet. Here you have the additional benefit of making sure the blinds stay out, and position too.

b) Fold. Just bad odds, and no guarantee of being headsup either. You pretty much will have to flop a set to continue with BB and SB in the hand. 3-betting is better than calling.

c) 3-bet. You have good equity. Both you and UTG make money by making the two fish put more money in the pot with much worse hands. Hope he caps and makes them put two-cold in. (And maybe... very maybe... fold)

d) Very specific to your game conditions. But the reason it is in here is to show the difference between this and 2b and 1d -- here you can't hope to get it heads up. This is a might be a good place to drop a low pocket pair, because you might not have the overlay you need for a set, and you don't have a big equity edge either.

-----

1c and 1d are virtually the same. The reason is because UTG has a limited number of possible hands. (And if he occasionally raises here with things like 78s, then sure, fold 44 and 3-bet/call TT.) But the normal range of hands for UTG are PP's TT-AA, big aces, and KQs. TT and 44 face-off almost the same against those hands, with TT having a bit of an edge becuase it spoils his straight possibilities with AK etc.

As always, advice and reasonable critique/discussion is welcome.

Adam

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
d) 3 bet or fold. Be more inclined to fold this than TT if UTG occasionally mixes up his play by open raising UTG with stuff like 98s. However, there really is no big difference between this and TT. Your preflop equity is almost as high against two overcards. I see no reason to just call this and yet 3-bet with TT. Because you are the last to act and are guaranteed a heads-up pot (with probably equity edge), you should do the same thing as with TT.


[/ QUOTE ]

Equity %:

AA-99,AKs-ATs,KQs-KJs,AKo-AJo,KQo VS. TT 51.21- 48.79%

AA-99,AKs-ATs,KQs-KJs,AKo-AJo,KQo VS. 44 58.73- 41.27%

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
d) 3 bet or fold. Be more inclined to fold this than TT if UTG occasionally mixes up his play by open raising UTG with stuff like 98s. However, there really is no big difference between this and TT. Your preflop equity is almost as high against two overcards. I see no reason to just call this and yet 3-bet with TT. Because you are the last to act and are guaranteed a heads-up pot (with probably equity edge), you should do the same thing as with TT.


[/ QUOTE ]

Equity %:

AA-99,AKs-ATs,KQs-KJs,AKo-AJo,KQo VS. TT 51.21- 48.79%

AA-99,AKs-ATs,KQs-KJs,AKo-AJo,KQo VS. 44 58.73- 41.27%

[/ QUOTE ]

"except in the case of UTG mixing up his game raising stuff like 98s occasionally, or raising with 99"


Also, are these numbers taking into account the relative frequency of the hands in his range? He's not going to have AA-JJ as often as all those big cards...

Did you get those numbers with a piece of software? I'd love a number cruncher that let me put in a range of hands instead of only one specific hand.

Adam

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, are these numbers taking into account the relative frequency of the hands in his range?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes?

http://www.pokerstove.com/

[AdamL]

Very nice -- thanks for the link.

Do you recommend folding TT here then?

[sthief09]

is it profitable to call down with a small pair in the BB if there is no A or K on the board? that's what I've been doing lately, but I don't know if it's working or not. also, against certain players, check-call, check-call, check-fold on a ragged board because I know they won't fire a third barrel with A-high

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you recommend folding TT here then?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Call.

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you recommend folding TT here then?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You beat me to the edit. I just realized, you've already got some money in the pot.

Some interesting things... I downloaded PokerStove. Doesn't have RD buttons for some reason like the screenshots.

Anyhow:

JJ is also a slight underdog against the probably range. That surprised me.

44 is still a playable hand from the BB, but a fold now on the button. I'm not sure you need to flop a set though, as Nate said. Nate's response to Sthief will clear that up.

---

OTOH, even though JJ-TT are still slight underdogs, I think some good arguments can still be made for 3-betting both of them. A big part of that is getting your money in when you are the most likely to be ahead. Pokerstove makes JJ & TT look weaker than they really are preflop, because it incorporates the hands from start to finish. JJ has a pretty clear advantage over AK preflop to flop.

JJ has reverse implied odds against big aces, as does TT, so 3-betting is better I think. 44, similar argument.

Adam

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
is it profitable to call down with a small pair in the BB if there is no A or K on the board? that's what I've been doing lately, but I don't know if it's working or not. also, against certain players, check-call, check-call, check-fold on a ragged board because I know they won't fire a third barrel with A-high

[/ QUOTE ]

On an uncoordinated board with no ace or king, I will generally assume that a small pocket pair is ahead. I'll play the hand with varying degrees of aggressiveness or passivity depending on how i'm feeling.

[slogger]

UTG is a solid, tight aggressive player.

1)

a) You are dealt QQ in the BB.

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Reraise </font>

b) You are dealt JJ in the BB

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Reraise </font>

c) You are dealt TT in the BB.

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Reraise </font>

d) You are dealt 44 in the BB.

UTG raises. All fold to you. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Fold </font>


--------
2)


a) UTG raises. You have TT on the Button. All fold to you. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Reraise </font>

b) UTG raises. You have 44 on the Button. All fold to you. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Fold </font>

c) UTG raises. You have TT on the button. Two loose players cold-call. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Reraise </font>

d) UTG raises. You have 44 on the button. Two loose players cold-call. What is your action?

<font color="red"> Close, but probably fold (one more caller might make this a call) </font>

[Lost Wages]

1a. Raise
1b. Raise
1c. Raise
1d. Fold

2a. Raise
2b. Fold
2c. Raise
2d. Fold

There is no exact right or wrong answer

I disagree. With the information given, the only ones that are remotely close are 1c and 2d. 2d would depend on the blinds, if I knew they would both call then I would call.

The general idea is that a TA-UTG raiser is much more likely to have a non-pair than a pair. With a range of raising hands of say AA-TT/AK-AJ/KQ, he is a 2.1:1 favorite to hold a non-pair.

Lost Wages

[Lost Wages]

there really is no big difference between this (44) and TT.

TT will flop an overpair much more often.

Lost Wages

[Nate tha' Great]

Even if your opponent did not raise with any cards containing a 9 or worse, TT is still somewhat better than 44. Which hand would you rather have on a 88559 board?

Just for kicks, here is the equity of various pocket pairs against AKo

QQ 56.8%
JJ 56.9%
TT 56.9%
99 55.2%
88 55.2%
77 55.0%
66 55.0%
55 54.6%
44 54.0%
33 53.4%
22 52.6%

The difference between TT and 44 is around 3%, which is not trivial. Note that there is a (relatively) significant drop-off between TT and 99. That's because, if you hold TT-QQ, it is very hard for an opponent to make a straight with AK without your making a boat. Also, with 22-44, you won't make as many one-card straights.

[ErrantNight]

1-
a) raise
b) raise
c) raise (and this is an easy raise... not sure why everyone is so afraid of being aggressive with TT... the reasons against it aren't as strong as those articulated for it... elsewhere in this post, in most of the commonly read hold 'em books...)
d) call... a little loose, but you'll flop a set sometimes, and you might have the best hand

2-
a) raise
b) fold
c) raise
d) call (i'm happy seeing the flop if i have to with just the three of us, my position will let me make up bets when i hit a set, and in most of the 2/4 games i sit at, 3 cold calls to an open raise is usually enough to entice one, if not both of the blinds to come along)

[Nate tha' Great]

I agree that 1d is not close. It's an easy call. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]
there really is no big difference between this (44) and TT.

TT will flop an overpair much more often.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that matters much more against more opponents, where the range of hands they might have are wider.

In this scenario, the likely overcards for UTG are higher than T anyhow. So flopping an overpair doesn't much matter.

E.g, If the board is 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, you don't have an overpair, but if he has two big cards he doesn't even have a pair anyhow. TT or 44, you're still the same ahead. If he has a big PP, you're behind just as much with either of those, as well.

Nate,

You made a really good point I hadn't considered -- when the pair becomes live against an otherwise tied board (double paired).

Are these situations common enough to warrant playing 1d differently than 1c preflop? It still seems inconsistent to me to 3-bet TT and just call with 44 for a few percent.

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]


There is no exact right or wrong answer

I disagree. With the information given, the only ones that are remotely close are 1c and 2d. 2d would depend on the blinds, if I knew they would both call then I would call.

The general idea is that a TA-UTG raiser is much more likely to have a non-pair than a pair. With a range of raising hands of say AA-TT/AK-AJ/KQ, he is a 2.1:1 favorite to hold a non-pair.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty well agree with you, also giving a nod to the fact that UTG might be mixing up his game sometimes or raising with 99, even 88 if the table is tight enough. (?)

You can't say that there is an "always do x" answer still, but I definitely agree that there is a strong leaning towards "correct" or "incorrect" in each answer.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]

Nate,

You made a really good point I hadn't considered -- when the pair becomes live against an otherwise tied board (double paired).

Are these situations common enough to warrant playing 1d differently than 1c preflop? It still seems inconsistent to me to 3-bet TT and just call with 44 for a few percent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three percent is roughly equivalent to the advantage that suited cards give you in heads up play. For example, against AJ-AK, KQ, AA-TT, the hand 87o will win 30.4% of the time, while 87s wins 34.0% of the time. So it isn't trivial.

In practice, you usually can't pin down your opponent's range of raising hands that exactly, and the possibility of his raising with 88 or 99 has to be considered. Also, if you are up against very loose blinds who are capable of calling two cold with hands like suited connectors, TT will fare significantly better than 44.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
1-
a) raise
b) raise
c) raise (and this is an easy raise... not sure why everyone is so afraid of being aggressive with TT... the reasons against it aren't as strong as those articulated for it... elsewhere in this post, in most of the commonly read hold 'em books...)
d) call... a little loose, but you'll flop a set sometimes, and you might have the best hand

2-
a) raise
b) fold
c) raise
d) call (i'm happy seeing the flop if i have to with just the three of us, my position will let me make up bets when i hit a set, and in most of the 2/4 games i sit at, 3 cold calls to an open raise is usually enough to entice one, if not both of the blinds to come along)

[/ QUOTE ]


Au contraire. The 1010 is absolutely NOT an easy raise.

Here is why you perhaps just call with the 1010 (and I am leaning against this now, actually), but you raise with the JJ.

Broadway vs. JJ: 39.6% - 60.3%
Broadway vs. 1010: 52.1% - 47.8%

For perspective, broadway vs. 44: 46.4% - 53.6%
So the 1010 is only very slightly better than 44 in this spot. If you're going to fold 44 (and you SHOULD), why on earth would you reraise with 1010?

Even reraising with the JJ is a slightly iffy play, since you really do want to see a flop to assess where you're at, if you're not already dominated. I'm all for aggression, but an UTG raise still means something in most games, and that something is "big pair". In the long run, you're going to lose money by reraising (or even flat calling) with 1010 in this spot, unless you can get a good read on your opponent or badly outplay him after the flop. With JJ you're still going to have to be careful, but unless you are in a very tight game (where the UTG raise is almost certain to be AKs at a minumum, and likely QQ or better), you should be able to make good money with the JJ in this spot.

[ErrantNight]

then you have much to learn, young jedi

[ErrantNight]

i'm too tired to argue... particularly since you've put some good thought into this :-) certainly makes me reconsider the raise from out of position, but i've had too much success with it in this situation to consider folding...

definitely some food for thought though... thanks for the reply

[AdamL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1-
a) raise
b) raise
c) raise (and this is an easy raise... not sure why everyone is so afraid of being aggressive with TT... the reasons against it aren't as strong as those articulated for it... elsewhere in this post, in most of the commonly read hold 'em books...)
d) call... a little loose, but you'll flop a set sometimes, and you might have the best hand

2-
a) raise
b) fold
c) raise
d) call (i'm happy seeing the flop if i have to with just the three of us, my position will let me make up bets when i hit a set, and in most of the 2/4 games i sit at, 3 cold calls to an open raise is usually enough to entice one, if not both of the blinds to come along)

[/ QUOTE ]


Au contraire. The 1010 is absolutely NOT an easy raise.

Here is why you perhaps just call with the 1010 (and I am leaning against this now, actually), but you raise with the JJ.

Broadway vs. JJ: 39.6% - 60.3%
Broadway vs. 1010: 52.1% - 47.8%

For perspective, broadway vs. 44: 46.4% - 53.6%
So the 1010 is only very slightly better than 44 in this spot. If you're going to fold 44 (and you SHOULD), why on earth would you reraise with 1010?

Even reraising with the JJ is a slightly iffy play, since you really do want to see a flop to assess where you're at, if you're not already dominated. I'm all for aggression, but an UTG raise still means something in most games, and that something is "big pair". In the long run, you're going to lose money by reraising (or even flat calling) with 1010 in this spot, unless you can get a good read on your opponent or badly outplay him after the flop. With JJ you're still going to have to be careful, but unless you are in a very tight game (where the UTG raise is almost certain to be AKs at a minumum, and likely QQ or better), you should be able to make good money with the JJ in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bunp.

Good post Lansing. I'd like to hear a rebuttal if someone cares to offer one.

Hand 1: 51.7576 % [ 00.51 00.00 ] { AA-QQ, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 2: 48.2424 % [ 00.48 00.00 ] { JJ }

Hand 1: 52.0515 % [ 00.52 00.00 ] { AA-QQ, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 2: 47.9485 % [ 00.48 00.00 ] { TT }