Mon. Night Study Group Hand

Please tell me how badly I played this hand (Dynasty has already):


toledobass is at seat 0 with 1340.

vanna is at seat 1 with 545.

mk420 is at seat 2 with 1085.

smokyrdr is at seat 3 with 794.

Jimbo Moran is at seat 4 with 785.

The button is at seat 4.

toledobass auto-posts the small blind of 5.

vanna auto-posts the big blind of 10.


Jimbo Moran is dealt: 3s 6s


mk420 raises 20.

smokyrdr calls 20.

Jimbo Moran says "Hi Dynasty".

Jimbo Moran calls 20.

toledobass calls 15.

smokyrdr says "hi".

vanna calls 10.


flop cards: 3c 4d 6c


toledobass says "hi".

mk420 says "hey Dynasty....que paso".

toledobass checks.

vanna bets 10.

mk420 raises 20.

smokyrdr calls 20.

Jimbo Moran raises 30.

toledobass raises 40.

vanna calls 30.

mk420 folds.

smokyrdr calls 20.

Jimbo Moran calls 10.


turn card: 2s


mjkshu (obs) says "hey all....Matt K. from small stakes.".

toledobass bets 20.

vanna calls 20.

smokyrdr calls 20.

Jimbo Moran says "This will will a good hand to post I can tell already".

Jimbo Moran calls 20.


river card: 8h so the board now reads 3c 4d 6c 2s 8h


mk420 says "hey Matt".

toledobass checks.

hutz (obs) says "so, how's this work?".

vanna checks.

mjkshu (obs) says "hey mk".

smokyrdr checks.

Jimbo Moran bets 20.

toledobass calls 20.

mk420 says "just wait for a seat...".

Dynasty (obs) says "write down the details to make sure you get it right".

vanna calls 20.

smokyrdr folds.

Jimbo Moran shows 3s 6s.

Jimbo Moran has 3s 6s 3c 6c 8h: two pair, sixes and threes.

toledobass mucks cards.

vanna mucks cards.

#21211-7609: Jimbo Moran wins 420 with two pair, sixes and threes.

Hand 21211-7609 ends.


I apologize for the internet format but I have edited it somewhat for brevity and clarity. Now I was told it was terrible to play this hand in the first place which is probably correct 98% of the time. I do believe in varying my play with good position and this hand seemed like the perfect opportunity. Yes I can get away from a bad flop quite easily.


The only things I feel I should have done differently are:

1) Raise pre-flop

2) Raise the turn


All comments are welcome and flames are inevitable! /images/smile.gif


Jimbo

If i remember correctly, I had a mid pocket pair, trying to get the HH from UB right now.


Pre-flop you label this as a variation play. The hand has absolutly no value in almost any situation I can think of. How does playing this hand benefit you in any way on later deals? What was your goal of varying with this hand?


I won't address reraising pre-flop for reasons stated above. Given that you did play it you should have re-raised the turn....


Allan

Thanks for your response Allan. Just what is unclear about using this play to show a variance in my starting hands? Aren't you more likely to call a preflop raise from me when I have position on you after showing down this hand? If so then I have achieved one goal (you may call when I raise with a premium hand), if not I have achieved another (you may fold and I have added dead money to the pot).


If I may quote you "The hand has absolutly no value in almost any situation I can think of." How about the situation I posted above? Or perhaps the time I made the same play with Pocket Kings vs: Houston Guy a round later and got called to the river?


I may remind you Vanna was in that hand and he/she was playing any two cards all the way to the river so I knew I had better implied odds than normal.


Do not misinterpret my reasons for playing that particular hand at that particular moment as me believing it is a "good standard play". As I stated it was to vary my button play vs: other very observant players (excluding Vanna) for some future value. Anytime the majority of quality players at a table think I made a bonehead play I am then sure it was useful, whether correct or not regarding a +EV at the present time. Does that make any sense to you?


Jimbo

Yes, it makes sense......I guess I am just a bit more conservative in my approach to variance plays.....In my case I like to use stuff that looks questionable but not too far wrong...I don't think my play is good enough to capitalize on complete trash unless I do it a few times and really create the "bonehead" image which I'm not too comfortable doing. Maybe reraising with T9s or something like that is more my style, (I know wimpy..lol)....anyway....I see where you are coming from although I maintain my stance that you could use a better hand. BTW are you playing Mon?


Allan

Also when I see someone make a play with this type of hand I usually file it away as a variance play.....I actually don't give much thought to it, when I see a hand that is closer to being "only a little wrong" I am more likely to pay off this player thinking wow, this person is overplaying some thin hands....Just a thought...


Allan

Good point Allan, I will file away that info in my notes on you! /images/smile.gif Yes I will be there Monday at 7:30PM EST.


Jimbo

I raised from UTG with Ac10d off suit. The ace was a club. With a board of 3c 4d 6c, I thought I had the best hand so I bet out. I had two overcards and a backdoor flush and a double belly straight.


vanna bets 10. mk420 raises 20. smokyrdr calls 20. Jimbo Moran raises 30.

toledobass raises 40. vanna calls 30. mk420 folds. smokyrdr calls 20. Jimbo Moran calls 10.


WIth all that action, I figured someone had a set or 2 pair. Even a big pair. I had to fold. I tried to buy it and it backfired.


****Observations and adjustments to shorthanded play***


1) Pocket pairs go up in value.7's through A's can win often unimproved.


2) Use an opponents agression against him/her. Dynasty had pocket Kings and let someone bet the entire time. The board did have a JQ so he could be either a loser or a winner. He called the entire way,letting his opponent build a pot. Dynasty didnt raise the end, and I think he made a smart play. A raise has a negative expectation considering his opponent could have QJ.


3) Postion play an important part in how to play certain hands. I will now raise with A9 suited from mid position to late postion in an unraised pot.


4) More hands get played, however don't go overboard.


5) Agression, wins more than calling.


6) Make adjustments to the type of players around you.


I just started playing shorthanded however, I do enjoy it. I just started rereading John Feeneys "Inside the Poker Mind" Essay Shorthanded Play:Don't miss out. I learned a lot of valuable information from that essay.If you guys don't have that book, I suggest you e mail Chuck and order it.


Dynasty and I played Wednesday night.Nobody else made it from 2+2. I learned a lot more from playing in that session, and it was a very profitable one.


I look forward to seeing you guys on Monday.


Best Wishes


MK

I agree with allen, this is not a variation anyone can adapt to nor is it going to make anyone fear your play. You called a raise preflop with a very weak starting hand. Had you reraised with it pre-flop that would certainly be a variation of the maniac variety, but the only thing I could take from this hand is you will call a raise with a loose holding, but on the button people will do it OFTEN.


Your flop play and beyond were okay, I think it is debateable whether you should raise on the turn with top two pair you certainly can, the flush draw and straight draws are still going to stay in, and if you are already up against the straight or a set (the 2 is a perfect card for anyone with the 5) then you are just going to get reraised and with 4 outs against a straight you want to at least see the river with that large a pot. Also if you don't raise the turn, and a blank hits on the river like it did, you can raise on the river.

As wimpy as raising 9 10 suited first in or in any position, that is exactly the variation type of play I would make as well.


I am curious to see what the pros have to say on this, I've never been able to figure out if I actually get my good starting hands called more often because of something like this. The other problem is you have to have a winner and/or show it down, its a big waste if you have to muck it.

#6 I find this to be of utmost importance of SH play. In a full game it seems as though you are able to maintain an edge by adjusting to the table as a whole, more "basic" adjustments. In SH play I've found you have to take exactly into account who is playing, what they've played and how they play it and how that relates to your holding. Real complex thinking evolves, since you will be involved in a large percentage of hands with each opponent...


I think #4 and 5 can almost be combined. I have found that people are adding a tremendous mix of hands into their play and I think it is just too much. Almost like they are playing HU. Yes, you will be playing more hands but you still need to figure out what you think has value and why you think it has value.....Q4s is not a legitimate hand to be calling a raise with IMO...


Allan

When posting hands from internet play, rather than editing the hand history, you should write a narrative. They're much easier to read.


I'm all for adding variation to your game. I don't think that six-trey sooted is the hand you should be doing it with. I would say this if it were a full game, and it goes double for a short-handed game. Suited hands go down in value in a short-handed game because there are fewer players around to pay you off if you hit your flush. Small cards are terrible short-handed. You're a longshot to flop two pair or trips (this is also true for AK), and even if you do, someone can easily make a better two pair if an overcard falls on a later street, and overcards almost have to hit when the flop comes like this. If you make trips, you may have kicker trouble. And in this case your hand isn't very coordinated, so your straight possibilities are limited.


Once the flop came down, you played fine. I'd be a little worried about a straight on the turn.