early tourney question

[texasrattlers]

This is just a basic situation that I run into a lot and I have no idea if I am playing this too tight. Situation:

PokerStars $10 table (starting chips 1500).

First round of blinds BB(20), Hero dealt

J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

in late position

Flop is

A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

First player to act bets 40, table folds around to Hero with one player behind me. I usually fold in this situation. But I wonder if it is worth the 40 to try to get a big hand (two pair, trips) relatively cheaply.

[stillnotking]

Definitely fold, you know you have the worst hand unless the early actor is very very loose (no draws on board). You don't know where you are at either, he could easily have AJ and snap you like a twig. Lots of people limp early with AJ.

[lorinda]

But I wonder if it is worth the 40 to try to get a big hand (two pair, trips) relatively cheaply.

The real question you need to ask is if it is worth the 20 before the flop.
In those games, even if you flop a monster, you'll probably only take down 200 chips or something, and you are far from a 9-1 shot to win this pot if you play correctly post flop.
Remove the flop problems by not being there.

In a ring game, this sort of holding isn't too bad, but in a tourney, those 20 chips are gone for good.

Lori

[texasrattlers]

Tom McEvoy writes that you should see flops with marginal starting hands early in a tourney in order to try to build a stack w/o risking much with the small blinds. So that is why I play hands like that sometimes.

So, whether or not I should have been in the hand to being with, does the advice to Fold change if it is checked around to the button who then puts in a small raise. It seems the button almost always raises if checked around.

[Irieguy]

Understanding that this hand cannot be played preflop is so important, that any discussion about what to do after the flop loses its relevance. But if you accidentally clicked on call preflop, then you have to be done with the hand after that unless the flop hits you pretty hard.

TM's advice is not for SNGs. And J-9 is not a marginal holding. J-A is a marginal holding. 9-9 is a marginal holding.

If you asked all of the SNG winners on this forum how many times they've played J-9 in level 1 from a non-blind position... the answer would rhyme with hero.

Irieguy

[ChrisV]

I don't play many big tournaments so maybe that "limp in and try to hit" stuff is good advice there, but in SNGs it's vastly overrated. The exception is trying to hit sets with small pairs, which is a good idea. That's because you get to straight up flop a rock solid hand with them.

Suited connectors and suchlike should only be limped in late position after other limpers. J9o I'm not going anywhere near. The right way to play a SNG is tight and passive early and loose and hyperaggressive late.

That said, in the situation you're in, you should fold. If you hit your 9 and then raise him it's going to be completely obvious what you have when you raise and only a moron is going to donate his stack with ace-random kicker. The only time you'll be getting action is when he has a better nine.

If you hit your jack, you probably still aren't going to get a lot of action. He didn't raise preflop so his ace either has a bad kicker, or worse still a jack, nine or five kicker. Once again if you get lots of action it's probably because you're beaten.

The advice doesn't change if it's the button betting (although if you're second last to act you might consider betting yourself) - nobody's losing their stack here unless it's you.

[texasrattlers]

Really? Are you saying the top players only play the Top 10 (or 15 or whatever) hands in the first few rounds of a SNG? What about limping from SB w/ J9?

And I see what your saying about McEvoy's advice being geared toward a MTT. I guess the reasoning there is that you need to build up a pretty good stack to get in the money w/ so many more players?

Thanks for responding to this post. I have read a lot of your posts and learned a great deal from them

[pshreck]

This is exactly right. J 9 isnt a marginal holding... it makes second best straights, bottom 2 pair... not to mention you have to flop something huge to play it anyways.... what if the flop comes jack high and someone bets?

When I first started playing online over a year ago, hands like J9 and Q8 were automatic limping hands, when they were suited I would call sizeable preflop raises. Then I started wondering what the hell it was I was doing... you need to think this also.

[DonWaade]

I like the idea of playing "marginal hands" as McEvoy writes, early on in a tourney. But I also think that he is saying to play marginal hands and look for a great flop, because if you dont hit, and I mean in a big way, i.e trips, straight, or flush, they are easy to get away from. He is not saying, "Pay to see the turn in a marginal hand with 2nd pair and a marginal kicker." This should be an easy fold no matter what book you have read. It is too early in the tourney to get tangled in a pot that does not have much value.

[ChrisV]

There's a few differences between MTT's and SNG's that mean that playing speculative hands is a worse idea in SNGs:

(1) As you say, the amount of chips you need to win is larger at MTT's. In an SNG you can cruise into the money off the back of a few smaller wins and blind steals, without ever doubling through.

(2) The blinds go up MUCH quicker in an sng. In an MTT you will be ground down by the blinds and antes if you're a rock in the early levels. In an SNG there's only three rounds of blinds before you get into the serious (50/100) levels, so you can more or less hold on to your starting stack.

(3) In a serious MTT blinds will be a lot smaller relative to your stack. For example, the first blind level at the WSOP is 25/50 and your starting stack is 10,000. The big blind is 1/200 of your stack, where in a Party SNG its about 1/55 of your stack in an 800-chip tourney and 1/67 of your stack in the larger 1000-chip tourneys. SNG-style blinds don't start until Level 3.

As for how tight you should be in the first level of an SNG, check this out for tightness. This is how I play the first level of an SNG:

If no raise:

Raise AA, KK, QQ, AK (60 chips)
Call AQ, AJ, any pair early
Call AQ, AJ, KQ, AT, any pair late
Fold all limping hands to raises except call small pairs if the raise is not large and there are two of more opponents.
Limp suited connectors 54 and up after limpers in late position.

To a raise:

Reraise AA, KK, QQ
Call AK, JJ, TT

Probably some tighter guys would argue about the inclusion of AJ, AT and KQ in my limping hands. (I play the 200+15's on Party, lest you think I don't know what I'm talking about)

I used to limp suited connectors a lot more, but I realised that all I ever flopped were draws. To counter Tom McEvoy let me quote TJ Cloutier on no limit holdem: Draws are death. Either I'd have to fold the turn facing a pot size bet, or I'd hit the flush on the turn and bet or raise and everyone would fold.

Limping from the SB with J9o is ok at the 10/15 level when it's only 5 more chips. You're doing it purely to try and flop top two at a minimum. At the 15/30 level I'd fold unless there were a stack of limpers.

[Irieguy]

Yes, only the top "X" hands should be played in the first 3 levels. (I don't want to start a debate about how many X is, but it's less than 10).

The top players never complete the SB with J-9 in the first few levels. I'm not a top player, but I'm quite sure that folding J-9 from the SB in levels 1-3 is not one of my deficiencies.

And thank you for the comments... most of the important things I've learned, I've learned from reading this forum.

Irieguy

[wjmooner]

Rattlers,

Irie and the rest of them are very correct about how tight you need to play, but I would add the one caveat that you can loosen up just a little on Stars as compared to Party, since you start with more chips and the blinds go much slower. Most players here play on Party, which starts you with 800 or 1000 chips and a very quick blind structure.

On Party my starting hand requirements are pretty much ChrisV's. On Stars for the 1st two levels if you are in late position and it hasn't been raised you can get away with limping with suited connectors like JTs, QJs, 89s, since losing one hand doesn't cripple you.

That doesn't mean you should ever limp with J9o. And I am a rock for the first couple of levels, even on Stars, but I would say the starting chip difference means you can play SLIGHTLY more hands, ONLY in position.

WJ

[captZEEbo1]

yeah, J9 goes straight in the muck. After the flop, you can bet that hand in last position, but if anyone calls you, you'll have to check it down and fold to any bets.

As to starting hands, I don't really like limping with AT at all. That's the kind of hand that'll just win you few chips, or lose you many chips. What do you do when someone bets a flop or raises you and you flop top pair? I like to be able to bet with confidence when I bet in early rounds. Hands like AT give me no confidence, unless I hit two pair, or a T with top pair. But even then, who am I gonna win chips from? someone hitting a pair of 6s, probably not.

[ChrisV]

I fold to any raise preflop so the situation of being raised and flopping top pair doesnt arise. If I flop top pair with no raise preflop and someone bets, I generally raise them. Txx is your ideal flop, your money coming from JT, QT, KT which are all commonly limped. Axx is OK too but you generally don't make a big score on that flop. I agree its a marginal hand, which is why I only play it in late position.

[texasrattlers]

Thanks for the detailed strategy post. So, the consensus SNG strategy is super tight early, super aggressive late. What about middle game? Do you gradually loosen up starting hand requirements, or is it a switch to hyper-aggressive once blinds and # of players reach a certain level. For an example, do you start calling hands like KJos middle stacked with say 6 players left in late position and several callers ahead of you and BB 100 or 200?

[mscott2374]

[ QUOTE ]
But I wonder if it is worth the 40 to try to get a big hand (two pair, trips) relatively cheaply.

The real question you need to ask is if it is worth the 20 before the flop.
In those games, even if you flop a monster, you'll probably only take down 200 chips or something, and you are far from a 9-1 shot to win this pot if you play correctly post flop.
Remove the flop problems by not being there.

In a ring game, this sort of holding isn't too bad, but in a tourney, those 20 chips are gone for good.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Lori makes a great point here, I'm not a very good tourney player, but I think one of the most important skills is avoiding trouble & folding this pre-flop enables you to get away from having to make a difficult decision. IMHO

[ChrisV]

Once it reaches the 25/50 level you should basically limp nothing. Sometimes you can limp small or mid pairs in late position. At the 50/100 level and higher never limp.

I'm usually quite tight in the 25/50 and 50/100 levels, I'll steal in late position with stuff like KTo.

Basically you should start switching into aggression mode below 8BB, and by the time you get to about 5BB you should be in full bore psycho aggression mode. With 8-12ish BB be careful as you risk a lot relative to your stack every time you try to steal.