5 player heads up 5/10 or 10/20

5 max 5/10 I am in SB typical loose agressive player(not a maniac)raises UTG BB is loose but will likely fold if I make it 3 bets. Any position except SB and BB I like to make it 3 bets. Any thoughts?? What do you consider??

I don't like putting in 3 bets because if I don't hit an ace or queen I am stuck semi-bluffing out of position or just calling. Neither is particularly desirable.

You have a weak nature at the table. As stated in :


" I am stuck semi-bluffing out of


position or just calling."


Did it ever occur to you that preflop, on flop, and on turn you have the BEST hand?!? With two opponents in a SH game, its likely NO ONE will have a pair on the flop. Make it three bets in the SB. You dont need to hit an A or Q to have the best hand... you really need to look at your style if you are intimidated by a UTG raise in a shorthanded game with AQ.

Then, on the flop, you are getting 7:1 on your bet out. If he folds ONLY ONCE out of every 8 hands, and calls alllll the others and you check-fold the turn, your bet is profitable. If he calls without a pair, he is making a mistake and you profit. If he folds, you win. If he raises you re-evaluate and probably check and fold the turn... depending on his type of play you may often just check and call to the river.


Personally- my style is to check raise the flop and bet out the turn. If he is hyper aggressive as you suggest, he is raising with Ax, Q9o, 79s, or some junk which is a dog to your hand. If you dont raise preflop from the SB you are stuck into check-calling and you are playing a weak, passive game. Sack up and throw bets out there when you have the best hand.

Each opponent has a 26.9% chance of hitting at least one of their cards on the flop provided they don't already have a pair and won't 4 bet it with something like 22-1010(quite likely). Combined for the two callers the odds are really close to 50% one of them hit their pair(If they didn't have one before).


Even so, I don't have a problem considering myself as possibly still strong even if I don't hit the flop and the flop doesn't have a lot of straight and flush possibilities, and betting it(preferred over checkraising except against habitual bluffers or extremely agressive opponents). Now if nothing hits on the turn (I only had 6 outs) I have just put in one or two more bets with very little likelihood of getting a free card on the turn as my check on the turn is a great signal for them to bet anything on the turn. This is why I don't like being as agressive as you suggest out of position.


I don't usually consider shorthanded opponents to even fear a checkraise on the turn even if I have done it several times recently on the turn with my big hands.


In contrast in position(on the button) the decision is easy, if its checked to me bet, and occasionally check(with the possibility of checkraising on the turn), or raise on the flop if I'm bet into. If I'm still getting bet into on the turn I have no problem throwing it away. Decent players need a lot better holding to bet into someone who acts after them than to someone who showed weakness by checking on the turn after putting 4 or 5 bets previously.


I think that even at higher limits it will now be impossible to knock someone off 2nd or third pair with a flop bet, they are getting 9:1 or 6:1 if I didn't reraise.


By your strategy it gives a lot of credit to opponents respecting your moves and showing of strength, don't you think it is more likely from the flop on players are going to play their cards and maybe their opponent in marginal situations.


I do see some merit in your strategy of getting good starting cards and hammering them for all they are worth(they aren't that frequent), but when you 3 bet preflop it shows strength but its only your flop bet or raise that your opponent looks at to decide how strong your hand is now, and usually that 3 bet preflop can be ignored in all cases except for marginal calls. To an observant player cold calling a raise in SB says something as well. Would your opponent make the distinction between someone who 3 bet preflop and then checkraised on the flop vs. cold call checkraise on the flop? either way the checkraise is to be feared a lot more. Maybe with the 3 bet they put you on a big pair more often than if you cold called, but I think the only thing you need to convince your opponent is you are beating them, maybe they should check behind you on the turn. I wouldn't argue if you are 3 betting for value, as its more likely you had the best hand preflop.

I dont agree at all with your thinking.


If you are afraid that if you didnt flop a pair and someone else did in a SH with a hand like AQ, give up SH. You will get bullied to death.


What are your options with that hand in SB? Call the raise preflop, and check fold the turn? Or check call the flop and let him take the lead with the worst hand? Think of the standards for raising in SH, and look where AQ stands there. If he has a pair he will let you know (he will certainly raise you with any draw or pair if he is aggressive like you say). Until he takes the lead you must assume you have the best hand. Forget about ring game tactics in SH play.


If they DO flop a pair, such as a pair of 3's or 6's or something, you are not that bad of a dog, and can possibly get them to fold.


Its actually 32.43% chance of hitting one pair on the flop. You caculate your odds incorrectly- This does not mean that if 3 or 4 players see the flop there is a 100% chance of someone having a pair... which is what you imply. Jeez- you must be folding tons of winners. Big point here you are missing with probability. A 32% chance of your opponent having a pair is scaring you from betting AQ. Not a winning strategy.


Your thinking is fine in a ring game. But insanely tight for a short game. SH is MUCH MUCH MUCH different and if you slow down with your AQ because of one raise preflop you will lose money. Any SH player *that wins* will tell you the same--- no 2 ways about it.


You are getting proper odds to reraise preflop and to bet the flop. Plain and simple. Read HPFAP cover to cover and re-read the shorthanded play section. It sounds like from your posts you need to adjust your aggression greatly. You will lose many pots with the best hand... and they are outplaying you.

I can understand 3 betting preflop and betting the flop. If raised on the flop you call? and then fold the turn if bet into again when you check?


What if you bet the flop get called(with 9 bets in the pot, you should get called with an awful lot). If you don't hit the turn then what?


The general impression I get is you are going to play his hand fast, 3 bets preflop and 1 or 2 on the flop depening on if he raises your bet. On the turn what do you need to call a bet? To raise?


I took my odds from Ken Warren's Book Winner's Guide To Texas Hold'Em Poker(26.939%) I have seen the chance of someone hitting a pair on from one of their cards as being 1 in 3 in other books so I'll take your numbers. If its 32% for one player I never said the percentages were additive but the combined percentage is higher than 50%, If you insist I'll calculate it exactly, maybe someone reading this will, Do the math for yourself!. If someone does have a pair you, are an underdog and are not getting good odds on your bet, however you do avoid getting run over like you say, which you are emphasizing is more important.


Incidentily HPFAP was the first book I read and I am quite familiar with its section on short play, but if you would like to point to a reference which talks about 3 betting AQ in SB I would be interested in seeing it. We are talking about application of hands here.


I take a lot of interest in what you say especially the REASONING and ODDS behind what you say. Your arguments would be stronger if you would leave out the colloquialisms, and keep in mind, the situtations I discuss are not always black and white and I may agree with your decision but want to see the WHOLE picture.


Unrelated to this issue I have actually played against you on several occasions 10/20 at partypoker, one day I'll let you know what my nick was. In general I saw you do quite well 2-3 handed but get beaten up pretty badly at 5 and 6 handed tables, I don't draw any inference from the records though I didn't see your cards.


I am mostly a 5/10 shorthanded player, I have a decent win rate 1.5BB up to 3BB an hour, but am trying to learn what it takes to move up to higher stakes. If you could point out the differences it would be helpful. I see a lot more agression that is OBVIOUS.

Touche. /images/smile.gif Sorry if i seemed condecending.


Yes, every situation is different. Against most opponents Id bet till i was raised (if its heads up) unless the board was scary (paired, 4 flush, etc). Youve seen my style in action, and it has been profitable.


If in late position, i bet/raise flop, check the turn if no improvement for a free card, and *usually* call the river (since any decent player would bet on riv with even no pair after turn was checked).


Seen me on party eh?!? OK, come one... tell me your handle. Or email me at willyg19@aol.com. I gotta know. /images/smile.gif I hit the site for about 3500 in 2 weeks and cashed out. Now on TruePoker for a few weeks. Then back to paradise ... etc. Funny you say i got beaten up... played every day for two weeks and only left 3 sessions loser. /images/wink.gif

What is your preflop hand selection like right now I am in about 25 - 35% of the flops. My hand selection is quite tight.


I usually raise if I'm first in. Against a raise I'm not playing anything less than 99 or 1010 or KQ or AJ or higher I will reraise with all of these except for KQ usually.


If first in I usually raise with JQ or higher and sometimes 10J suited if in late position and maybe some of the lower 78s 910 suited once and a while.


Pairs I will usually play 99 and higher but on the button or cutoff down to 66 if the blinds don't defend enough and I don't fear a reraise.


One gapper I will play as low as JK with 10Q rarely.


Two Gapper I will play as low as K 10 but only in late position first one in.


In general I don't consider whether the cards are suited unles


What about adjustments for an agressive table? or a passive table?


Anyone??

I tend to agree. I would want to try to make it a heads up match with my big cards. Calling two bets rather than one is going to put some heat on the big blind. And if the original raiser re-raise, you will know that you're between a rock and a hard place.


If the flop misses you, what is wrong with checking and taking the free card if the original raiser does not reraise pre-flop or checks the flop. You accomplished your initial goal in just getting heads up. However, your second goal of making a hand has not materialized. Are you trying to go too far with the second best hand?


Again, it is the case of playing your opponent. And not your cards in the way you would play in a full ring game. If your opponent is aggressive, be passive and visa versa.

For value and to make the BB fold are good reasons to 3 Bet preflop with AQ. Now on the flop remember we are in SB and first to act on the flop. This is what I have real trouble with. What would you do.


If AQ checks on the flop and I were the original raiser I would think two things right now 1) the flop missed him or 2) he is going to checkraise

or 3) both. In any of the three cases with my AJ I would like to know where I stand on the flop so I would bet. Now with your AQ will you checkraise and then go for the free card on the turn? Is it likely if you checkraise on the flop and then check on the turn that you have something? I think if you 3 bet preflop checkraised on the flop and now check you have overcards, what else could you have except a draw if there was one. A big pair is certainly not going to check the turn, and a checkraise twice is unlikely. I might fear AQ and AK but not shorthanded so I will assume you are worse and bet. Am I wrong in my reasoning???


The way I see it the three possible ways to play this are as follows:


WillyG would bet or checkraise the flop then bet the turn and maybe slowdown on the river against most opponents.


I might check to see if he bets and then checkraise. Then when I check if he bets on the turn I have a really tough call and would fold if he bet.


If I knew my opponent to be superagressive and capable of bluffing outright or checkraise semibluffing I might have to check call the whole way, but I really hate doing this and thats why I started this whole post in the first place.


I see a real problem with checkraising the flop and then checking the turn don't you?? Either I think and represent I'm best or I don't.