fun with people who call anything

[Chizoad]

Playing a live 9 handed 6-12 game, where people are calling almost anything on every street. T5o for 3 bets cold preflop, stuff like that.

I pick up K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button. 4 people limp to me, and the only semi-tight player left in the hand is the SB, so I figure it's worth raising here. Questionable, I know. Anyway, the SB hesitates, and calls, and now everyone else does too including the BB.

7 players, 14 SB's.

The flop is Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and is checked to the player on my right, who bets out. I raise here, the SB hesitates again, and calls, muttering something. The original bettor calls.

3 players, 10 BB's in the pot.

Turn is the 6/images/graemlins/club.gif and it's checked to me. I bet. The SB mumbles "I got a gutshot" and calls, as does the guy to my right.

River the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and the SB fires out still talking about his gutshot. Guy to my right mucks, and I call. SB shows 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif to take it down.

Now I have my own ideas about how I should play my hand in the future, but what do you guys who are used to playing in this type of game think?

Chiz

[nothumb]

I think the SB doesn't realize that he essentially has an open-ender as a J or 7 would have made him good here.

I think you should fight to keep that seat with your life, play more suited hands, and avoid raising pre-flop with big unsuited cards other than AK or AQ. And tell the guy nice hand.

NT

[bdk3clash]

This doesn't sound like a particularly fun hand. Easy, easy, easy raise preflop. Rest of the hand is fine.

[Chizoad]

Ok here's what I was thinking. My preflop raise is just giving them better odds to draw, making their asinine pulls more correct (or less incorrect).

However, I don't think the preflop raise is necessarily the problem with this hand. If I had limped in and then raised the flop, the cold calls would be really bad. But because I raised preflop, the cold calls on the flop weren't as bad. For example, the SB calling with the gutshot draw on the flop was getting 8.5:1 in the hand the way I played it, but would have only been getting 5:1 (probably 5.5:1) if I had not raised preflop.

Since I did raise preflop, I think waiting until the turn to raise would have been the better play. It's likely the flop bettor would bet again on the turn, allowing me to raise and charge the draws that much more.

Basically it's all about manipulation of the pot size. Nonsense or not?

Chiz

[xxxxx]

I don't spend a lot of time on this "protect your hand" stuff. If I got a made hand and someone is on a draw, I throw money in the pot. If he makes it, he makes it and if he doesn't he doesn't. Manipulating the odds so he is slightly better off folding then calling doesn't make any difference in the long run.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't spend a lot of time on this "protect your hand" stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please come to Los Angeles. I'd love to play with you -- weekdays at Commerce, the Bike, and Hustler, and weekend nights at Hollywood Park.

[Chairman Wood]

Preflop, I believe you have a good hand, especially for the button, punish the limpers here and raise just about everytime. Also, this line will often give you a free turn card, if needed. On the flop, you did what you could, you protected your hand and presented SB with a chance to make a mistake and he made it. You should be happy. Big +EV for you. On the turn, what else are you going to do but bet, SB now has a double gutshot so his hand has greatly improved. Even with just a gutshot he would have the right odds to call. Almost impossible to present a situation where SB would make a mistake so we are concerned here with value betting. River, oh well, it happens. Good hand.

[nothumb]

Ok, you understand this concept very well, but your opponents don't. Manipulating pot size against truly awful players is like trying to stop a blind man from snogging your sister by painting red dots on her crotch. He won't know the difference!

That said, I think waiting for the turn would have been better here, since the player who beat you doesn't sound as bad as some of the others.

NT

[Chizoad]

Yeah this particular opponent was much more likely to fold a draw than other players in the game. Only 1 or 2 players in that game would call 2 on the turn with an ISS draw, and he wasn't one of em.

Even so, I don't really care if they fold, since they're making a mistake either way. I just want them to make more of a mistake, according to Sklansky's fundamental TOP. I don't think your analogy of the blind man (though funny as hell!) holds completely true here.

[xxxxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Please come to Los Angeles. I'd love to play with you -- weekdays at Commerce, the Bike, and Hustler, and weekend nights at Hollywood Park.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it you multi-table brick and mortar casinos.

Not throwing a bet in with the best hand because it gives someone with a draw correct odds to call doesn't make much difference if it isn't actually -EV.

[jayrutz2]

Agree, agree agree....keep you seat, win win!

[Shillx]

You played the hand fine. Don't wait until the turn to raise here here. The pot is not super huge and you have an chance to face people with 2 cold...what more could you ask for?

The Shill

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, you did what you could, you protected your hand and presented SB with a chance to make a mistake and he made it. You should be happy. Big +EV for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
SB has a gutshot, backdoor flush draw, and backdoor straight draw. With 17 SB in the pot plus implied odds it is hardly clear that calling two cold on the flop is even a mistake, much less a big one.

[Chizoad]

Yeah I agree. I don't think the SB made a mistake at any point during the hand, at least not a very big one. The only debatable play being the flop.

My point of the post was to see if it's reasonable to consider manipulating the size of the pot to try to get him to make a mistake. Most posters seem to think no, but I'm not convinced by any of the arguments. I'm also not convinced I played it wrong either. Probably either way there's not much of a difference in terms of EV.

[StellarWind]

Too much worrying about the opponents' pot odds for their various draws. They are not relevant to your play of this hand.

You have the best made hand and they are drawing. They will call you down with any plausible hand because that's what they do. You will never force anything worthwhile out of such a big pot. The more money you put in the pot while you are ahead, the more they call and the more money you make. It's that simple.

Waiting until the turn to raise costs you a highly profitable flop raise. This will be well worth it if they bet the turn and allow you to raise. Otherwise it will be terrible.

You need to decide how likely Cutoff is to bet again with a worse hand and act accordingly.