shorthanded and heads up

Can someone please tell me why shorthanded play is better than a full ring game.


I find my swings in shorthanded to be very big...

This is why I no longer wish to play shorthanded....I cannot stand it, when my opponnent gets lucky..and I do mean lucky....even though...I make few errors


I do not draw to flushes or straights....I like to hit a pair prefarably top and go with it.....because the pot odds do not warrant it.


I do not get psychologically involved in pots..when I do infact raise.....and don't hit it...


Please explain to me why people like Mike Caro, even Mason say that shorthanded play is where you can make most of your profit, it never happens for me.....


Do you have to have a little luck??

Isn't the short term luck factor huge in shorthanded play??


Please help me out...because I've had many many losing nights....playing shorthanded....

I think part of the logic that is behind the hypothesis that more profit is to be made in a short-handed hold'em game is analogous to profitability in a blackjack game as a card counter. The more hands played per hour is proportional to the increase in profit. The other part of the logic is, of course, the skill to play a short-handed game. Hand strength changes with the number of players. The ability to read a player and to make adjustments for each player is more critical.


Let's just look at the hands per hour. First, hands do not take as long to complete as in a full game because there are fewer players to act. Strong short-handed and heads up players will want to keep the game at a fast pace. Second, more hands are played because of the shift in hand strength.


Besides hands per hour, the win rate in poker is dependent upon the difference in skill of the other players at the table. What may appear as luck may in fact be skill. I have seen opponents' pairs get cracked because of skillful draws like a double gut-shot with a flush draw (15 outer). When someone hits the straight, they get upset because they fail to see the other draws available. Then, many of those players go too far with their weak pairs.


To me, going too far with a weak pair is the biggest, most costly mistake in the game. I use weak pairs to gauge a player's ability, kind of similar to the way a pit boss uses A7 hands to do the same at the blackjack tables. If they don't have something else to go with their weak pairs like a straight or a flush draw, I am confident that I am the better player. They do occassionally make their set on the turn or the river and occassionally I will call them (or they call me) when I hold just AK. But the times that happens is much less than the other, ie. they will lose much more than they will win in the long run. It may look like luck, and in a way it is, but you won't see the times they weren't as lucky.


In short-handed and heads up games, you have to be able to play the player. You have to perfect your card reading ability. You have to perfect your ability to judge the style of player and adjust your game accordingly. Probably, the single most important skill after mastering those above is the ability to dominate an opponent regardless of their playing style.


One of the biggest leaks in my short-handed game was how I played the small blind. After taking a good, long look at how I played and what I played, it was apparant that just that could mean the difference in winning and losing at a short-handed table. Play in the small blind is not nearly as important in a full game. But it becomes so with the accelerated rate of the button in short-handed game.

You dont need luck, nor can luck possibly help you in the long run - as you well know.


People say shorthanded is where the money is because it is where people misplay their hands the most. Even good ring players.


"I do not draw to flushes or straights....I like to hit a pair prefarably top and go with it"


This is totally wrong. You're going to get dozens of replies telling you this. You are waiting for the kinds of hands and pot odds that you see in ten-handed games. In the meantime you are folding a lot of winners and turing yourself into a loser.


You don't need 4 to 1 pot odds in a heads up pot to draw to most straights and flushes. This is because you can often win when you make a medium to high pair. And if you bet these hands (as you should) you can win before catching anything when your opponent folds.


A hand like QJ with a flop of 983 heads up is a gut shot - but its also an automatic bet and usually a raise. You have ten outs to a very good hand, also your opponent can fold right away, or the 9 or 8 can pair up, possibly giving you a decent bluffing opportunity, and once in a while it will win unimproved. If you see this hand as just a four out draw you shouldn't play shorthanded. In fact much weaker looking hands than this should be played and played fast in shorthanded pots.


Additionally, theres a ton of extra opportunity in shorthanded games to read and exploit player types. For example, someone who knew how you play would just bet every flop against you, and show a hansome profit. Against a player that was too loose, he'd tighten up his early betting a little but play more drawing hands for their future value. There are many opportunities to play the man instead of just the board.


Shorthanded games are definitely profitable, you just need to widen your hand selection, broaden your assessment of which cards will improve your hand into a likely winner, work on your bluffing and player reading skills, and read. The semi bluffing chapter in TOP was one of the most valuable to me in improving my shorthanded play.

When you are playing twice as many hands in a given time period, the difference between good and bad players is noticed quickly.

You have to TOTALLY adjust your playing style... and as the previous replies state, you need to really hone in on and perfect your card reading skills. Every bet or raise you make is not only for value, but for information. You need to bow up and throw bets out there with something other than top pair. You need to stay on draws in certain situations.


The key is also the constant changing of style. Since the skill at shorthanded play is reading opponents hands, if you disguise your play and are constantly changing gears, you give them a disadvantage in that they cant put YOU on a hand.


Be prepared to intentially call down in early position with a horrible hand with the intention of showing it down. Hopefully they will remember it.


Getting free cards is essential.

Check raising is essential.


Try this one time. If there are no raises preflop, and you are in late position with 3 or 4 players in, and it is checked around to you, give them a free card. Then, no matter what card comes next and no matter what you have, raise or bet the turn. See what they do.


In summary, you need to give yourself more chances to make a hand since the field is so much smaller.

Dont loosen up too much- play hands you would play in middle to late position in a full game.

I agree with all of this advice. But theres one other issue concerning hand selection that bears mentoning:


"play hands you would play in middle to late position in a full game"


generally in full ring games this would be hands like Kxs, K9o, 33, 45s, 78o, J7s, ect, depending on the game type and number of people in the pot.


But shorthanded games are unique in that you aren't just always in mid to late position, but you're often also the first one in. In effect, whenever noone comes in front of you, you're in a steal postion, and when you're in the blinds you're often vulnerable to a steal.


In these scenarios, which basically never happen in loose ten handed games, you need to loosen up even more, come in raising with weak aces and other hands youd normally never play.

Agreed.


i would add Ax and sometimes, even Kx.


And- a HUGE point I forgot.


In a short game, it is *almost* never correct to call, unless you are trapping someone... or are in a situation like top 2 pr against someone making it 3 bets on flop and turn... and you are weary of trips.


Raise, or fold.

It sounds to me like you're making lots of errors. If you're playing, say, five-handed, the blinds come around too fast for you to sit around and wait for premium tickets. If you're waiting to hit top pair with a good kicker, you're sure to lose your money. You have to lower your standards and gamble a bit. If you find this distasteful, and it sounds like you do, stick to full games.


Never drawing to straights and flushes cannot be right. If you bet or raise with draws as a semi-bluff, they should become profitable hands. You might pick up the pot right away, but you have outs if you're called. These outs might include an overcard to the board, which I might not treat as an out in a full game, but which just might be good in a short-handed game.


Another thing to keep in mind is that even if the flop doesn't hit you, it probably doesn't hit your opponents either. I'm not saying you bet at every pot indiscriminately, but you should bet or check-raise with next-to-nothing some of the time. Pairs, Aces, and sometimes even Kings have showdown value. Don't automatically muck a small pair just because you didn't spike your set. Don't automatically play it to the river either.


Luck certainly is a factor, and it is magnified in a short-handed game--in the short run. Skill is magnified in in the long run. You play more hands than you would in a ring game, which gives you more opportunity to exploit edges.

Enjoyed your posts very much.


A couple of questions/comments.


First of all, regarding calling. It seems to be calling is correct in a fair number of situations. "Trapping" can cover quite a lot of ground.


Another very common situation where calling is correct is when you have a hand good enough to continue with, are likely behind, and the opponent you're up against is not likely to fold if you play it aggressively. Folding is obviously wrong when you have the outs to continue, and raising is often wrong, depending on the particular opponent, which only leaves calling.


Another situation where check-calling would be correct would be when you have a mediocre hand that you think has a decent chance of winning, but has little chance of improving (such as a small to middling pocket pair, for example). I can see pushing this hand hard on the flop to see where you are, but if you're still unsure at the turn, then check/calling seems to be the best option.


I certainly agree that you want to have a raise/fold mentality, but there are quite a number of situations where calling is correct IMO.


The second point is regarding free cards. Against most opponents, heads up, I don't think free cards are that important. With a draw you have two ways to try to win a hand. One is to hit the draw, and the other is to bet your opponent off his hand. If you play for a free card, you are limiting yourself to just one option. Saving a bet against most opponents is not as important as the chance of winning the pot by aggression.

I'll admit I've called bets before in head up pots, but I really don't think any of these situations are very common.


"Another very common situation where calling is correct is when you have a hand good enough to continue with, are likely behind, and the opponent you're up against is not likely to fold if you play it aggressively"


In truth, when you have a hand that is likely behind, and your opponent won't fold, on the flop you ought to be in one of 3 situations:


1) Raising won't make him fold, but it will make him back off and check a better hand on the turn. In this case, you raise, to get to the showdown more cheaply. And if the turn is a scary card, you have represented a draw and might make him fold then.


2) Raising won't make him stop playing aggressively, and he'll probably come back over the top and he'll come out betting on the turn if you call. Here your hand is almost never good enough to continue with. In head up pots in shorthanded games pots your effective odds totally suck in these spots. If you don't want more money in the pot you really don't want to be in it at all.


3) Same as (2), but with an already large pot. This almost never happens in a shorthanded game. But here you would chase.


On later streets, because of your play on the flop, you should almost never wind up in a situation where you aren't sure whether you're a favorte or not. The only times it should happen are when you thought you were ahead but then a scare card lands on the turn or the river. If your opponent is capable of bluffing then at this point you do sometimes have to check and call.

I get 1). I also understand pushing things on the flop to get information as to where you are. What I don't get is why you wouldn't go into check/call mode when you determine you are behind but have odds to continue and don't think you can stop or slow down your opponent by aggression.


You also make the statement that because of your play on the flop you should almost never be in a situation where you don't know where your are. This is only true if your opponent isn't very good. One of the first things you want to do is not give your hand away, especially on the flop. So any decent player will vary his play.


But once again, even if you do know you're behind, often the odds will be enough for you to continue. For example, if you put your opponent on a pair and you have overcards to the flop, just that's often enough to go on, and that's only 6 outs. This is a very common situation.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're probably behind, with few outs to improve, say 3 or less, but not positive you're beat, then you almost never have the odds to continue.


To use an example with numbers, say you're first to act, theres 5 sb in the pot, you have a weaker, unfavored hand like a low pocket pair or bottom pair, and the bet is 1 sb to you. You think you'll have to call a bet every round to see his hand if hes got you beat, but he'll sometimes just give up and check behind you on the river if he has bottom pair as well.


In this case you really need to asses that there is at least about a 40% chance that he has a weaker hand for you not to fold. And once that chance gets much higher than 50%, you out to be raising, because many of HIS weaker hands will have some outs. So thats only about a 10% window in which you would check and call.


When you're on a draw with overcards AND you put him on a pair, AND you dont think raising will slow him down or help you steal later, its correct to just call the flop, but even then the pot is often to small to call again on the turn, cause you need almost 7:1, a bit less if you can take some more off of him after you hit.


I do agree that when all the circumstances you menton are in place, it is correct to check-call, and your points are well taken. I probably do see these spots as rarer than you do, but that may just be us having different impressions of the same tendency. My attempt is more to qualify exactly how rare I consider those check-calling situations to be, particularly against weaker players who can be easily read to have a defintively better or worse hand, as well as players who can be bluffed at or slowed down with a little agression.


The other thing is you'll notice that in a limit heads up game between two equally good players, they may almost never check-call, and its rare that a hand will be shown down.

I pretty much agree with everything your saying. I think we're on the same page.


With a hand like a smallish pair or say an Ace/low card, you really want to know where you are, so it's worth pushing the hand on the flop if your opponent has tendencies to let you know where you are. If you're behind, you don't want to chase with a 2 or 3 outer.


However a 6 outer is a different situation. Here you want to chase even if you're behind, so it's not as important to know where you are (not saying it's not important, just not as important as knowing with a 2 or 3 outer). Plus you might not be chasing. A lot of times you don't need a pair to win.


I agree with your comments about better opponents. Here the raise/call idea is more likely to be correct, IMO, because better opponents will be trying to avoid chasing. However even here it's important to vary your play. For example, if the only time you call is to trap your opponent, he'll surely notice that.

I didn't quite read all the post's in this thread,

but there seems to be some debate about checkings

and calling vs. always raising/folding.


You must understand that all shorthanded games

are not created equal.


You should come up with a strategy that will

exploit your opp's weaknesses...If you can't

think of one your in the wrong game.


I was in a game tonight where I didn't get away with a bluff once in 20 minutes...I raised weak

limper with 79 suited, got 3 callers. Flopped K8T open-ended str flush draw...Bet all the way..HU on river.. I bet,

and get called with AJ high.


Alarm bells went off in my head..."Take the free card...Take the free card"...So my strategy reverted to semi-bluffing less, and trapping less...I went from $200 down to a $5 profit after this hand.


(I also started limping on the button more in a steal spot with all but my best hands, because the BB always called, and rarely folded for a bet on the flop.)


Usually the major decision in which your strategy will differ from game to game comes up on the TURN, maybe with the exception of trapping on the flop.


Also a game where calling becomes more correct is against very aggressive opponent...Weak tight can

be optimal if they don't know how to slow down by

the turn.


Also like someone said, sometimes you are just getting the right price on calling (Example 45 suited in BB) Raised pot, 2 opp's..Flop [A][2][8]

rainbow, you check, Bet, Call...Now you are getting 8.5 on a call...so you CALL.


One other bit of shorthanded advice that I like to give is, use the "Take what you can get"

philosophy: If your blinds rarely get raised, this is a great game..You don't have to play

marginally profitable hands outside the blind..Just stay conservative and take what you can get. Its an easy way to beat a short game.


On the other hand if your in a $3-$6 or $5-$10

game and your blind gets raised almost every time, you may be in an unbeatable game due to

the rake unless you can find an obvious way to exploit your opponents or get them to play bigger.

Well- looking at the huge number of responses to my "never correct to just call" post- If you read the post you will see i am referring to a short handed game, NOT a heads up match. The two games are completely different, in every way.


I do think though... that "stopping" in a heads up match can be deadly. If you are in an "iffy" situation and you are just calling your opponent down in heads up, you will get smashed if this is frequent. It shows weakness in that you are admitting you dont have him figured out, and if he is any good he will exploit this. It may work in the short run, but in a long heads up battle you will be dead in the water and you are throwing your money away. You are allowing HIM to control the pot size, which takes away a major edge in your game. Calling gives you no information on what he is holding, and you give him all of the momentum in the hand. In most situations if you are calling beyond the flop with the best hand, you are giving him an advantage.

Your edge comes in making larger pots when you have him, and smaller ones when you dont. If you find yourself only calling with the best hand... well, you get the point.


BTW- "card player"... enjoying your posts tremendously!!!!

Nice post.


Two comments. First regarding edge comes from winning large pots and losing small pots -- edge also comes from getting your opponent to incorrectly fold more often than you do.


Secondly, whether heads up or short-handed (which often becomes heads up) you can be in situations where you know or suspect you are behind, but still have odds to continue, and this isn't uncommon. In this situation, you have a raise/call decision, not a raise/fold one.

Sounds to me like you've got no idea how to play shorthanded.

When you're on a draw with overcards AND you put him on a pair, AND you dont think raising will slow him down or help you steal later, its correct to just call the flop, but even then the pot is often to small to call again on the turn, cause you need almost 7:1, a bit less if you can take some more off of him after you hit.


Right. Also, out of position a call on the flop can be very scary to your opponent. For example, you raise under the gun and only the BB calls. He check raises you on the flop of 962 and you just call. He fires on the turn with his 67, figuring his pair is good and not wanting to give a free card ... now if you'd play your 88, or A9 or 9T, or K6 the same way and raise the turn when he bets, then you can sometimes raise with a lot of other hands and he might just lay down second pair (or you can take a free card). But if you do take the free card on the turn, you've sometimes got to do it with a real hand too, inducing a bluff or value bet on the river, at which time you can raise.


I'm not explaining it very well, but I think the key is disguising your hand and winning a lot of the pots where neither of you has anything or much. You do this through aggression. If you are constantly hurling raises into the pot it takes away your opponents ability to bluff.


They'll get tired of making check raise bluffs or semi-bluff only to get three bet by middle pair! Eventually you'll just be raising almost every hand and they'll be folding there blinds they are so afraid to play against you. Then at some point you'll be playing a few too many hands, and they'll start coming over the top of your raises with 86o and you'll have to reign things in a little.


There is an ebb and flow to shorthanded. You've got to adapt quickly ...