99

[Guy McSucker]

PArty 5/10 6-max.

99 in the BB. Three limp, SB completes, I check.
Should I raise here?

Flop: 8h 7h 4d.

SB checks. I bet. Anyone want to check-raise here?

UTG and button call.

Turn: 5d. I bet, UTG raises, button folds.

I call. River is Ah. I check-call.

All comments appreciated as ever.

Guy.

[balkii]

PF raise/check is borderline. I tend to check vs 4 players.

I prefer to bet/3-bet the flop rather than check/raise.

rest of the hand looks routine. I think you played it well.

[Dark Force Rising]

A clear fold on the turn in my mind.So what if a tricky player semi-bluffs you out of a winner with his flush draw from time to time.And is he doing it with Axh?Apparently not so how about Axd?Does he have a set?Or did Qs6c get there?In spite of the fact that SH play requires more calling down I can nevertheless trace the majority of my downswings by giving away too many 2 BB gifts on the turn and river.Looks to me like treating it as a two outer(6s 6c)would be the prudent course of action.PF and on the flop is fine.No need to get cute check raising or giving free cards with that board and four limpers.It is like betting the flop for information more than value here.

[Guido]

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A clear fold on the turn in my mind.

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Why? He must have a 6 to make a fold correct. When he has 2 pair you have 12 outs which make a call correct. When he has a flush draw a call is obviously correct. When he has a set you have 6 outs in which case you still have to call. So I don't get why a fold on the turn comes to mind. When he just has a pair of 8's a call is obviously correct. So you must be very very sure that he has a 6 to make a fold on the turn correct.

[ QUOTE ]
SH play requires more calling down I can nevertheless trace the majority of my downswings by giving away too many 2 BB gifts on the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]
When you call the turn. Which is a must IMO, you don't have to call the river. Folding the turn would be a gift IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Looks to me like treating it as a two outer(6s 6c)would be the prudent course of action.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, you have some hand reading skills I don't have...

[ QUOTE ]
No need to get cute check raising or giving free cards with that board and four limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]
When a LP tends to bet when checked to I like to check-raise. If not I bet out. The big advantage is that when you check-raise, players with a 5 or 6 make a big mistake by cold calling. They don't make a mistake by calling with Q6o when you bet out. Also players with 2 overcards don't make a mistake by calling so you gain nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
It is like betting the flop for information more than value here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, what information did you get? I think it's for value.

Sorry if this post is a bit harsh but I want to make clear that a lot of the things you said are wrong.

Hope it helps,

Guido

[Dark Force Rising]

Don't apologize for being harsh.My first post was met with a verbal thrashing from none other than Naphand.I survived that so I can probably survive anything! /images/graemlins/smile.gifAnd I need all the help I can get.

I pray to Christ that someday I can take my analysis in the heat of battle to the level you do but in the meantime the amount of chips I save by not going ballistic at my bankroll when he shows me that six,or that set,or that A8d,or that boat which gave me two pair will compensate for that bad? fold.For the intermediate level and beginning player my thoughts stand.You are beaten and your outs are specious at best.Everyone quotes the Ed Miller stuff but they ignore Sklansys' foundation on which Miller built.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

When you call the turn. Which is a must IMO, you don't have to call the river. Folding the turn would be a gift IMO.


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So Guido... do you advocate calling the turn raise and check-folding unimproved on the river?

Guy.

[Guido]

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I pray to Christ that someday I can take my analysis in the heat of battle to the level you do

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't pray but play /images/graemlins/smile.gif. You will get there when you try hard.

[ QUOTE ]
in the meantime the amount of chips I save by not going ballistic at my bankroll when he shows me that six,or that set,or that A8d,or that boat which gave me two pair will compensate for that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
The only time folding is right when you are absolutely sure he has a 6. In all the other situations it is wrong to fold, even when he has a set. You don't have to go ballistic, just call the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
You are beaten and your outs are specious at best.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, you should only fold when he has a 6. You are in front of A8 and a flush draw. You have 12 outs against 2 pair and 6 against a set. You are getting about 7:1 so 6 outs is enough to make this a call.

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone quotes the Ed Miller stuff but they ignore Sklansys' foundation on which Miller built.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I quote Ed Miller, haven't read his book. I just says what I think is right.

Thanks,

Guido

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
So Guido... do you advocate calling the turn raise and check-folding unimproved on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's the big question /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I would really like a read to answer this question better. I will probably call to get a better read on him. The river was a bad card. A8 just got there, some flush too and he could obviously have a straight, set or 2 pair. I think you will win this less than 5% of the time so I think it's a fold.

Guido

[Guy McSucker]

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I will probably call to get a better read on him


[/ QUOTE ]

I called so I could post results.

He had 6-2 offsuit.

Guy.

[Dark Force Rising]

See /images/graemlins/smile.gif.Nevertheless,Guidos points are well taken.

[MAxx]

i raise here pf. i can see balkii argument for it being either check or raise. i three bet 99 from mp or lp a good bit of the time, so it just feels more right to raise 99 out of the blinds, even with a few limpers. it gives you control on the flop as well. if bunches of overs come on the flop, and/or people seem interested in anything other than folding to my flop lead.... its easy to get away from the 99.

my default is to call that turn raise down... unless i have a read. i see too many flush draw c/r's and pair + flush draws do this turn c/r plus the fact that my hand could improve as well. I am going to make him show it, and get a line on his style.