How good is this advice??

Any comments from the experts??


Heads-Up Poker Limit Holdem


After thinking about what to write on this issue, I came to the conclusion

that it would take at least a book for each particular game. This would be a

great endeavor and would take a lot of time on my part. But as I say, "you

have to start somewhere".


The games that most of the people on RGP are most familiar with is Holdem.

The weakest part of 99.99% of the players in the world is their heads-up

game or short handed game. Basically three or less is short to me, though

many consider the number to be 5. We will be dealing with heads-up play, my

specialty, in all shapes, forms and sizes.


Let me give you a small out-line about heads-up poker. The best players will

dominate in a fairly short period of time. The best player will choose "pot

limit' as their choice, since it is the most skillful way to play all these

flop games. It is also the most skillful way to play 7 card stud also, 7

card stud high-low and Razz.


Draw poker should be played in a No-lomit style, being it high or low.

However, with proper ante structure and blinds, draw poker can easily be

played in a limit format.


The only game that really deserves to be played NO LIMIT is 5 card stud [no

stripped deck]. This is a game where the best players can play for months at

a time and not lose.


On with the lesson for today. We will start with Limit Holdem, heads-up.

First let me explain to you that people that are not excellent players will

have a hard time understanding many of the concepts that I state. Concept

one is this; you can play every hand in heads-up holdem and crush an

opponent who is not as good as you. In fact, it may not be a bad idea to

even play every hand against anyone, including WCP's.


The main thing about heads-up play is the aggression and the control of the

betting. People that play heads up make decisions that are lightning fast.

Speed kills in this situation and the faster you can play and comprehend the

situation the larger your advantage is over your opposition. A period of no

longer than 50 hours should determine the best player in this game, no

matter how lucky the individual is. Normally it would not take this long.


Now I know you are asking the question already; how can you play every hand

and win? I pose this question to you, what are you going to do with an

opponent that raises every pot on the button and calls every raise when you

have the button? Obviously we are not talking about idiots here. A person

that sits and waits for a hand, like he is in a ring game, will soon find

out he has lost numerous buy-ins in blinds. To fight a person who plays

every hand, you must do the same thing. Swings will be very great, but the

person who bets the best and reads the opponent the best will come out with

all the chips.


Think of heads up in this manner. What would happen if the game was played

with the cards turned over, face up. Wouldn't some one want to bet on every

card? Obviously if they turned their cards face up, you could see the

advantage and thus bet. Some one would definitely bet every time. Same can

be said when the cards are face down. When there is not a bet on one of the

streets, either the person is setting up a check and raise for a double bet

or someone is losing a bet with the best hand.


The idea of the game is to realize when you have the best hand. Now this

can't be done every time or even close to every time. However, to beat the

opposition, all you have to do is be able to recognize when you have the

best hand more often than he does. Not that difficult if you know what you

are doing.


Main thing of playing heads up is the control of the betting. Now,

controlling the betting does not necessarily mean you have to bet every

time. The concept of this is that when you want the money in the pot, it

gets into the pot, and when you don't, there is no bet. It's that simple.

But to accomplish this, it takes great skills.


To begin with when playing heads-up, you determine the type of opposition

you are facing. Is he aggressive, super aggressive, passive, tight, or will

he battle every hand with you until the finish.


Here is where the skill really comes in. The best player has more styles for

offense and defense than you can possibly imagine. He can stop on a dime and

accelerate to light speed in a split second. One thing you have to remember

about heads up poker. You are not betting on making your hand. You are

betting on the opposition NOT making a hand. Totally different from the way

your understanding of the game has been taught to you.


Random cards are what they are, random cards. Playing every hand is a

reality you would face against many of the best limit holdem players in the

world. How you play them is the difference. Obviously NO ONE can have a hand

every time in poker. Here is where the jousting begins. Betting and raising,

the key to controlling the game, in almost all situations.


Here is the difference. Say you are both playing every hand. Say the hands

come out with each winning the same amount, as theoretically it should,

should you go to the end. Obviously the one that out bets the other will win

the money. One of the keys here is not to make any pot too much different

than any other pot. Put the same value on all of them. The winnings will be

the times you get the opponent to give you a free card and the times you

value bet him to get an extra bet.


But it is not a perfect world and the cards don't break even. In heads-up,

it really doesn't matter. The best players have so big an edge it is really

incredible.


For an experiment, try this one day. Raise the pot every time on the button

when playing heads up. Check every time after the flop. Bet or raise every

time on fourth street. See what your results are. In fact, try without

looking at your cards, just don't let the opposition know you are doing

this. See if they can adapt.


Realize that any one that waits for a hand in a heads up situation will lose

many blinds while waiting. Also, when he gets involved in betting, the

opposition will know he has some thing and will be waiting to check- raise

him and trap him, or let him win the minimum.


Heads-up players that win, bet their own hands, they don't bet yours. You

have to learn to do this yourself. Object of the game is to get the money

called when you have the best of it and have free cards given to you with

the worse of it. I wrote a post a while back called the rule of 7. This

applies greatly in this game of limit heads-up holdem.


Heads-up, is not a game for callers. callers will go broke quicker than they

can pull the money out of their pockets. Feeler bets, those made on the

flop, will give you some kind of information about the oppositions hand.

Check raising is a major part of this game. Check raising with nothing is a

major part of this game. This is why I have written that post about the rule

of seven. In heads up, you must be prepared to bet with nothing as many

times the plays are going to be nothing against nothing, with the one that

does the betting the best winning the pot.


Remember, the game of heads up poker is not to make hands. The game is

betting your opposition is not making hands. Here is where position comes

into play. As a rule of thumb, never 3 bet on the big blind in heads up

holdem. As a rule of thumb never 4 bet on the button in heads up holdem.

Think about what I just stated.


Any one who three bets on the big button, will come out betting on the flop

as he has already told you he wanted to establish dominance in the hand. He

will come out swinging to either try and steal or continue with the play the

hand he is representing. Either way, no matter what you have or had, you are

setting him up. If you had Aces on the button, and did raise, and were

reraised, do you think it would be smart to make it four bets? You are

setting the victim up to bluff the pot or trap himself. Patience please.


Same thing goes if you have Aces on the big blind and get raised. By

calling, you are not telling the opposition anything and know he will

attempt to steal it after the flop if he hasn't a hand or will bet it if he

does have a hand. Here is where the trapping comes into play. Besides, I

have told you that the object in limit is not to make any hands much

different than other hands.


Not having the opposition able to read your style is the difference between

winning and losing. The key, is being able to have so many different styles

that the opposition doesn't know how to combat it. All heads up players are

aggressive. But in a horse race, the speed of the speed is the one to fear.

However, do you always want to be the speed, if the pace of the game is fast

enough? The answer is no. The name of the game is knowing how to bet to get

the most information about a players hand. Sometimes it is best to lay off

the pace and punish him in the last quarter of a mile, meaning the river.


Remember, many things are a given in heads-up poker, just as in ring game

poker. Expect a person who raises on the button to expect to bet when the

flop comes high cards. Also expect that he is going to bet no matter what in

this situation, or check to make you think he is sand bagging. Then when you

check on fourth street, he comes out betting, knowing you have the image in

your mind that he was trying to trap you.


Remember, there are no gimmees. Playing poker means playing poker. Learning

to adapt is the key to heads up play. The pot must be the right size that it

is supposed to be when you win it. If it is over what it is supposed to be,

give your self a high five as your opponent shall soon fall.


Key to success at limit heads up holdem, is make all pots about the same as

if you hold aces or a 7-2 off suit. By this I mean don't make the pots so

big that it takes four or five to get the money back. Never underestimate

the opposition. Better to over estimate him and adjust later on. For if you

have to adjust, he is yours any way.


Speed in playing is very beneficial to heads-up. Same as in many sporting

events. Many opponents don't have the computer chips able to process the

information as well as the best player. The faster you play, and I don't

mean by betting or raising, but by making the moves, the less information

the opposition gets to absorb. Some people will say they are tells, but this

is BULLSHIT. It is a sense of how long the opposition takes to respond. It

can only be a nano second, but it is not a tell. It is a gift for only the

ones that have really paid attention to poker.


A tell is some one who picks his nose when he has the nuts, or doesn't when

he is bluffing. All these MORONS tell you they picked up a tell, but they

never tell you what it is. I state, THEY ARE JUST GUESSING, and some of the

time they have to be right. Just remember, the ones that are always in the

position of calling are the ones that will lose. Yes, tells do exist, but

not with WCP.


If you never called and always lost your money betting, you would be far

better off. As long as the decision is in the other corner, you are in

control. You determine the percentage of bluffs and the percentage of times

you are betting with the best hand. When they state they have picked up a

tell in the high limits of professional poker, it is a bluff to vindicate

why they called. Have you seen their hands when they call and they lose? If

you had that information, then you could make an accurate analysis.


The rule of the game is this, those who are calling will soon be losing. It

takes a certain skill to even be in a position to have the opposition

calling you all the time. If they are capable of doing this, they are

capable of adjusting to less bluffing and having the opposition calling more

with the worst hand. The edge is always with the bettor. For he can have the

best hand, or the others may fold.


This will be an ongoing series where I will answer sensible questions posed

to me. I am not a writer. I do know one thing however, though I may not

write well, I can outplay any writer that has ever lived.


This has taken me many hours to write and I am getting tired. Sometimes I am

in better spirits [get it, Dom Perignon] than other times [Moet Chandon].

But I am here to show you and let you be the judge. Math in heads-up, you be

the judge. I am decent in math and most subjects. Far from the idiot these

people tried to portray me as when I came on line.


Remember, I do this for free, which may not be the brightest thing to do,

but I have never claimed to be the most intelligent. I have claimed to be

the best poker player, however. I will be writing about heads-up poker quite

frequently from now on. I will go into all games, limit, pot limit and the

rest. Patience please and feel free to ask questions.


I must get at least 20 e mails a day when I am coming out with a book. I

really don't care. I do this for free to have you people realize I am what I

am [Popeye] and if it takes this to convince you who is the one telling the

truth, so be it.


Doesn't it amaze you that I get attacked by individuals that have literally

no knowledge on the subjects I am writing. Where are the one that have some

knowledge. In my pocket haha


Russ G newgca@aol.com this will be a series about heads-up next

will be heads-up pot limit holdem want to play

Hey JAque, i'm a beginner low limit hold'em ring game player interested in improving my heads-up play against my opponents. I'm just now learning the importance of re-raising with my big suited connectors to isolate my opponents and to get it heads-up. I play tight and think i should have an advantage against my looser or atleast hopefully weaker calling station opponents. I'm very competitive, like to win and my bottom line is important to me. Whats the fastest way for a beginner to get a jump on the learning curve on playing heads up and in short handed pots? Is there any literature on the matter?


I just clicked on to this heads up part of the twp plus two site and shorthanded forum for the first time and plan on keeping up with the links when i have the time. If you have any suggestions or tips i would greatly appreciate it. By the way your post was very interesting. I'm sure your contributions will be appreciated. Sincerely, Bill.

The only literature I'm aware of is the short handed section in HEFAP21, which is limited (i.e., not too long) but very good.


There are a number of on-line sites where you can play heads-up for free, which is a good way to practise.

There are a lot of things to think about here. Since this post is so long, I'll just comment on a couple of things.


Main thing of playing heads up is the control of the betting. Now, controlling the betting does not necessarily mean you have to bet every time. The concept of this is that when you want the money in the pot, it gets into the pot, and when you don't, there is no bet. It's that simple. But to accomplish this, it takes great skills.


To begin with when playing heads-up, you determine the type of opposition you are facing. Is he aggressive, super aggressive, passive, tight, or will he battle every hand with you until the finish.


Not having the opposition able to read your style is the difference between

winning and losing.


I think this is right on. I think aggression per se is often over-rated, but the concept of controling the betting is good. Especially good is controling the betting without the opposition realzing what your are doing.


Object of the game is to get the money called when you have the best of it and have free cards given to you with the worse of it.


I don't quite agree with this. I think it's the right way to think against certain types of opposition (in particular, opponents who don't fold as often as they should), but against opponents who fold too much (or fold at the correct frequency) you want to think more in terms of getting them to fold their hands when you have the worse of it than of getting free cards.


For example, say you raise on the flop with a draw that can only win if you catch your draw or your opponent folds. Do you continue betting on the flop, or do you take a free card? Against a calling station type opponent who doesn't fold as often as he should, you take the free card. Against most opponents, however, you're better off betting hoping that your opponent will fold or you make your hand.


When you semi-bluff a drawing hand, you can either play for a free card or try to win the pot through aggression, but not both (you can't have your cake and eat it too). You have to decide which way to go. I think against most opponents you're better off trying to win the pot.

Hi Bill. My advice to you is to stick with your full game until you get more experience before trying the short-handed and heads up games. Much of the skill necessary to play a good heads up or short-handed game comes from being able to read your opponent's cards. Another necessary skill is your ability to get into your opponent's head.


If you were to jump into a heads up game right now, it would be like jumping into a school of perannahs after you cut your finger. If you think that you stood a fighting chance because you play tight, you would be broke in less than a heartbeat. You need to get some experience against loose, wild, maniac type players instead of the calling stations. You need to know how to handle those sort of players in a full game before tackling heads up or short-handed contests. You need to know when to come back over the top at them or just let them go or just run with them. It gets back to reading their hands. The most difficult players to read are the loose maniacs.


Also, in heads up games, you will run into counterfeit calling stations. They are capable of switching gears on you at anytime and the call you all the way to the river without ever betting their hand. Sometimes they will have nothing. Sometimes they will have a monster. But you will never know it. They determine to stay with the hand either before the flop or after they see the flop. They could also be using game theory to make their decision to stick it out.


Honestly, I think you missed the perspective of this forum. I may be wrong but I think you're looking for advice on how to play when it's you and another player or two in your full ring game. If that is the case, the most important thing you can do is read as many books as you can. Read the posts on this site. Read the Usenet posts at rec.gambling.poker. Read as much about the game as you can. The second thing you can do is ask questions. Put your posts here. Dig for the answers. The third thing is to play. Keep a log and a list of lessons learned. Evaluate your play with more scrutiny after a winning session than a losing session.


Poker is an endless quest for knowledge of the game. If you are a true poker player, you never stop learning about the game. It is also an endless cycle of reading and thinking about the game away from the tables and playing.


There is also a potential flaw in your game. Of course, you want to win. But so do all the other players at your table. If you hold your "bottom line" too close, you may create a major problem in your game. You will have some losing sessions as well as some winning ones. The difference between them should be your "bottom line".


The "will" to win is nothing without the "will" to prepare.

Hey KSU78, your exactly right about warning me not to become somone's dinner playing in heads-up matches. I think that would be very dumb, but appreciate the cautionary warning. What i meant was heads-up confrontations in full low limit ring games. If i'm in a full game and reraise with AK, AJs, Tens, etc., i can often get it heads-up and it's these situations that i think i could use alot of improvement. I was leary of buying HPFAP (Holde'm poker for advanced players, right?) because i'm not anywhere close to being an "advanced player." Krieger and Lee Jones wrote books on winning low limit holdem but don't offer anything on shorthanded games and HU confrontations. I think i'll go ahead and get HPFAP if it's got a section on it. I've only got 250 live hours of play time so i'm not being hard on myself nor do i want to get ahead of myself (i know there's no substitute for experience and what you said about play-read, play-read, play-read . . . . . is good advice).


Thanks for responding. Your advice is appreciated.


PS. As to my bottom line reference, i meant my hourly win rate (that's how you good players keep score right!).

Don't be frightened by the "for Advanced players" part. This was a marketing decision to sell books because "all poker players think they're advanced". That book is a must have.


If you're interested in heads-up play, the Theory of Poker is excellent too. A lot of the principles explained there are most applicable to heads-up play and are useful in many situations.

HPFAP is for the novice as well as the advanced player. I suggest that you re-read Lee's book and look for the principles involved. Principles are a little elusive but they are there. They are usually in the form of things not to do, like semi-bluffing a calling station. Why do you raise with pocket aces? Why is AJ offsuit or KJ offsuit dangerous hands that can usually be dumped in a raised pot? A classic of mine is what do you do with AA on the button when there is a straddle and 5 or more callers? Really look at starting hand theory and why certain hands don't play well under certain conditions and why others do. Learn the different flop types and how the starting hands apply to them.


For the most part, you are playing in a game that requires showing the best hand. For your game and what you are seeking, rely on the pot odds with respect to your draws. Try to learn the strength of your hand with respect to the board. Estimate what odds your opponent needs for each round. Learn how to put a read on your opponent. If you know what cards your opponent holds, the rest is easy. In my most perfect game, $15-30 at Bellagios a few years ago, I was doing it all, knowing the odds of my draw, the strength of my hand versus the field, and the cards my opponents held as well as the odds to their draws. I had a beautiful pyramid in front of me. There is no other way to play.

Thanks guys. Tewall, i'll get hpfap. As to understanding and using principles, i've been working on that too. I still semi-bluff calling stations way too often but am learning to "when in Rome do like the Romans" and play their "style" more when a game is dominated by loose passive calling stations as opposed to how i would play them before which was to try to ram and jam it up with marginal raises.


I still don't think i could bring myself not to raise with AA on the button with 6 players already in, but now i call with AKo in that situation and others like it while understanding why it's better to do so. Before i would raise with any hand that was raisable like KJo in middle position with four already in, now i dump it. When i do raise or re-raise with AKo it's to get it HU or clear out the field.


These are things i didn't understand at first. You know, the book said i could raise with ATo in middle position so i did, irregardless of anything! Now the only time i'll raise with ATo is in late postion or the cut-off to steal the blinds or when i'm on the button to try to knock out the blind and isolate the one player who called the blind. Anyway i'm just rambling.

You probably know that already, but I found Abdul's "Short table strategy"-post very useful (see link below).


cu


Ignatius

Thanks. Yes, I have taken a look at this.


His presentation is different than how I think of the game. He talks of a certain style and adjusting that style based on the opponents reactions without mentioning the cards being held. I think more in terms of the cards I have and how those cards react to cards the opponent may have and come up with strategies based on that and how my opponent plays. At least this is how it appeared to me.


For example, the pound pound pound strategy can work very poorly against a tight-passive opponent. But I may have misread or misunderstood something. I like and respect Abdul's writings very much.

Interesting post Russ,


I have a few points to contend with,


I don't think you should call every preflop raise even if your opponent raises 100% of the time, while I don't think you lose much in folding even your very worst hands I think you should still fold them, I can think of no way to "prove" this is more profitable, but in my experience it seems slightly better.


Also I think threebetting from the big blind has its place preflop, especially if it will slow down the opposition in future hands.


I also think you should fold your worst hands on the button preflop, although you I think raising or folding is certainly viable.


By the way, while I can respect your confidence in yourself, I don't think making bold (and to my knowledge unjustified) claims about how you are the best player in the world is going to go over well in this forum.


Best of it,


Shawn Keller

I also think you should fold your worst hands on the button preflop, although you I think raising or folding is certainly viable.


I'm sure you meant "raising or calling here". You're getting 3 to 1 for your hand, and you have position, so why fold? I think the worst hand, 32, has pot equity of .32


By the way, while I can respect your confidence in yourself, I don't think making bold (and to my knowledge unjustified) claims about how you are the best player in the world is going to go over well in this forum.


Russ didn't post this here. He posted it on RGP. Someone else re-posted it.

I really think you should re-examine the strength of starting hands. 32 is not the worst. It can still make a straight where as 72 cannot, nor can 83 or 94.


I also think you are too caught up with the pot odds. Again, it is more important to play the opponent than the cards in heads up. If the opponent raises only with quality hands, a muck is in order with trash hands. However, if the raise is with anything, one random trash hand is as good as another. Heads up Texas holdem is a game played with chips, not cards. Whoever can exert more control over the betting and the money in the pot has the advantage.

When you semi-bluff a drawing hand, you can either play for a free card or try to win the pot through aggression, but not both (you can't have your cake and eat it too). You have to decide which way to go.


To me, this is not right. First, a semi-bluff is an aggressive action in an attempt to win the pot immediately. Second, it can still be a play for a free card depending upon position. By playing for a free card, you must be the last to act. It makes no sense to be playing for a free card to semi-bluff bet or semi-bluff check-raise when you are the first to act. There is no such thing as a semi-bluff for a free card on the turn (fourth street). Therefore, when you semi-bluff a drawing hand, you are doing both, playing for the free card AND trying to win the pot. (The cake is delicious!)


This is essentially the flip-side of our position discussion: Position with regards to betting opposed to position with regards to starting hands.


If there is any decision to make, it is whether to bet or to take the free card on the turn.


Against a calling station type opponent who doesn't fold as often as he should, you take the free card.


I don't think this quite right, either. On the flop, you're getting your 2:1 odds on 2:1 or so draws. A semi-bluff on the flop against a calling station is a good move. It gets money into the pot. However, a check on the turn is usually a good move because of the shift in the odds for the draw.

I really think you should re-examine the strength of starting hands. 32 is not the worst. It can still make a straight where as 72 cannot, nor can 83 or 94.


Remember, this is talking about in position only. In position, when you act, all you know is your opponent is playing a random hand. What hands your opponent will play doesn't enter into what hands are good enough for you to play. The pot is offering you 3 to 1, so any hand is good enough to play that will pay 3 to 1 or better. The worst hand, 32, pays almost 2 to 1, so against an unknown opponent, you're theoretically giving away money by folding. Against certain opponents, it may be more profitable to fold it than play it, not because it's not worth playing, but because folding may induce more profitable errors on the part of your opponent.


Regarding 32, in headsup the high card value is more important than the straight value. 94 is much better than 32.


I also think you are too caught up with the pot odds. Again, it is more important to play the opponent than the cards in heads up.


Both are important. You have to play both cards and your opponent. Of course your cards are important, or else you would play all cards the same. Actually, it's important to *appear* to be doing just that (playing all hands alike), but in reality you have a plan in mind with different hands/flops based on your perception of your opponent's play.


If the opponent raises only with quality hands, a muck is in order with trash hands.


This isn't true at all. If your opponent is only playing quality hands, you should bring in every hand with a raise. (Remember, this is in position, acting against a random hand). You'll kill him by eating his blinds. If he shows strength, then you can consider getting out if the flop misses you.


Heads up Texas holdem is a game played with chips, not cards.


It looks to me like you're contradicting yourself. If holdem is played with chips, not cards, then the cards don't matter. If the cards don't matter, then you shouldn't fold some hands and not fold others. But you're advocating folding "trash" hands. So cards do matter.

To me, this is not right. First, a semi-bluff is an aggressive action in an attempt to win the pot immediately. Second, it can still be a play for a free card depending upon position. By playing for a free card, you must be the last to act. It makes no sense to be playing for a free card to semi-bluff bet or semi-bluff check-raise when you are the first to act. There is no such thing as a semi-bluff for a free card on the turn (fourth street). Therefore, when you semi-bluff a drawing hand, you are doing both, playing for the free card AND trying to win the pot. (The cake is delicious!)


Obviously the choice is regarding the play of the next round. On the round you raise, you are hoping your opponent will fold, but if he doesn't, what do you do next round? You can either play for a free card, or you can make a play at the pot. You can't do both (have your cake and eat it too, at least not on the same round).


You *can* make a play for a free card out of position. On the flop you check-raise. On the turn you check again. If your opponent is afraid of your check-raising him again, you get your free card. If he's not afraid, perhaps it's because you're not check-raising him enough on the turn. If you mix up your play of good hands on the turn, he won't automatically bet into you when you check.


The turn raise play would not be for a free card per se, but for a free showdown. That is, with a hand that you plan on showing down, you can raise on the turn with the hope that you win the pot right there, or win by improving (in which case the raise gets you an extra bet), or you can show down your hand without having to pay any more than you would have anyway. So it costs you no more when you lose, and you get an extra bet when you win (and you give yourself the opportunity to win the pot right away)




Against a calling station type opponent who doesn't fold as often as he should, you take the free card.


I don't think this quite right, either. On the flop, you're getting your 2:1 odds on 2:1 or so draws. A semi-bluff on the flop against a calling station is a good move. It gets money into the pot. However, a check on the turn is usually a good move because of the shift in the odds for the draw.


If you're a favorite over pot odds, then you're not semi-bluffing, you're just betting/raising for value.


BTW, thanks for the responses. I enjoy the discussion. Hope you do too.