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[Shanemex]

I recently started playing sit and go tournaments again. I hadn't played since the summer but I had been doing pretty well by making about $4 average on $10+1s on party and UB. I have built up my bankroll playing limit recently and I had previously done well so I decided to move up to $20+2 Party SnGs. I played 24 of this weekend, and the results were terrible. I started off with six straight out of the money. In the next eight I had four more OOMs, two seconds, and two thirds. Then I had ten straight OOM finishes. So 24 entries at $22 each = $528 - $200 in winnings = $328 loss. I know I may just be running cold, but a streak of six OOMs and then another of ten in the same weekend seems highly unlikely for a winning player. I have reread a lot of stuff about playing SnGs so I think a am playing close to correctly. I'd like to say it's just bad luck but it's not like I am getting drawn out on a lot. I have tried playing very tightly when we still have 6-8 players at the 100/200 level and I just get so shortstacked by the time I get a hand I can't really win much with it. I have tried playing more aggressively when the blinds are coming around but it seems I always get called by a better hand. In the last one I played there were seven players level at the last hand of level 4 (50/100) and I was UTG+1 with A8s and about T500. UTG folded, do I push here even with five players left to act? I did and was called by AQ.

Another problem I have had is playing overpairs and top pair in a big pot. I will make a 3x BB raise early with AA-QQ or AK and often get two or three callers. By then the pot is 200-300 chips when I have about 700 total left. If it's checked to me I will normally bet about 2/3rds to the size of the pot which means I have about half of my chips invested in the pot. Then if I get check-raised or flat called by someone slowplaying it's really tough to get away from the hand because I have so few chips. I don't want to bet too little if the board is coordinated or there is a two-flush so I don't know what to do. I just know I've been knocked out by sets in six of these 24 tournaments, and I don't recall this previously being a big problem.

[Chief911]

Regarding your two hand portions.

With A8 UTG with that many people, this is a fold. Not a clear one, but I think most times I fold here.

Regarding getting beat when you have large pocket pairs, if you are getting 4 callers, raise it more than 3xbb to get it isolated to one or two players willing to call your big raise.

Bad results happen. Examine your game, most likely TIGHTEN up, and drop back down a level if you have to for BR management. Never be afraid to drop back down for a bit to rebuild. Its not easy to move up levels. I spent a LONG time at 10+1, tried 20's, back down to 10. Tried 20's, back down again.

Nick

[Desdia72]

he says he kept getting killed by this guy named Henry Orenstein when he started playing $400-$800 for like 6 months. instead of letting his ego get in the way, he said he would move back down to $75-$150 to build his bankroll back up for the whole week and hit the $400-$800 again. if you're a winning player in Party's $11s, move back down and get your BR back up, then hit the $22s again.

[A J Carisse]

Those results would leave me pretty discouraged too /images/graemlins/smile.gif It's hard to tell too much with your post but believe it or not you probably need to get more aggressive when you actually do have something. A8 later in the action can be a hand where you can go with, but it depends on your position, your opponents, and how desperate you are /images/graemlins/smile.gif Realize though that when you make a play like this it's to win the pot now, not fool around /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have no idea how anyone wins on Party at any level though, so who am I to ask /images/graemlins/smile.gif One thing's for sure though - your variance is going to be higher than it needs to be and your ROI is going to be lower. Maybe you could come over to Stars where they actually give you enough money to play with (T1500) and the blinds aren't nearly as crazy. The setup at Party is designed to make THEM money by getting these things over with quickly, but in doing so they take skill out of it pretty much and instead you've got to rely on getting lucky way too much to finish in the money.

Good luck
A.J.

A.J.

[pshreck]

There are tons of people making very high ROI's at Party, also doing it in shorter times than other sites.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Those results would leave me pretty discouraged too /images/graemlins/smile.gif It's hard to tell too much with your post but believe it or not you probably need to get more aggressive when you actually do have something. A8 later in the action can be a hand where you can go with, but it depends on your position, your opponents, and how desperate you are /images/graemlins/smile.gif Realize though that when you make a play like this it's to win the pot now, not fool around /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have no idea how anyone wins on Party at any level though, so who am I to ask /images/graemlins/smile.gif One thing's for sure though - your variance is going to be higher than it needs to be and your ROI is going to be lower. Maybe you could come over to Stars where they actually give you enough money to play with (T1500) and the blinds aren't nearly as crazy. The setup at Party is designed to make THEM money by getting these things over with quickly, but in doing so they take skill out of it pretty much and instead you've got to rely on getting lucky way too much to finish in the money.

Good luck
A.J.

A.J.

[/ QUOTE ]

from PP SNG elite, who not only make money on a regular basis, but who also contend that skill IS involved in PPs blind structure (i.e ZeeJustin- says PP SNGs have alot to do with mathematics).

me personally, i played a couple of their play money SNGs last night and there was not much skill involved at all. not compare them with the $215s, but i think you made a good point about PP Sngs are designed to MAKE THEM MONEY! think about their name--- PARTY POKER. the longer it takes for a game to end-- where a constant rake on every hand is not involved-- the less money they make.

[A J Carisse]

Keep in mind here that I'm directing this at someone who is getting clobbered there. I know there must be plenty of people who are doing decently or even well at PP. Our friend isn't one of them though.

Now, I'm not saying that there isn't skill involved at PP, rather that you tend to get rewarded more for skill if the thing doesn't go down this quickly. And there's plenty of math there that's for sure /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Another consideration is the particular player's style. I can play the hyper aggressive stuff when I need to - I just don't want to need to every freakin tourney /images/graemlins/smile.gif And I find it frustrating to play well and accumulate chips just to see them swallowed up quickly when the blinds are huge and all you're getting is the bottom half of the deck.

There is the time factor as well, as the previous poster has brought up. Sure, it's going to be better to make money quicker. You've got to have a good ROI to go along with this though.

I'm far from the expert on PP since I've just played a few tourneys.

I'd be curious though to hear from you experts there on how you deal with the crazy blind structure. In particular, what kind of hands you're pushing with at, say, 300/600 and beyond.

A.J.

[w_raedy99]

It seems to me like perhaps your timing might come into question. You stated you haven't played SNG's in a while, and when you come back you already move up a level? It might be more conservative to come back and practice for around 20 hands in the $10's (like you played in the $20's) and then see if you are still performing up to past standards.

With that being said, making $4 a game is definitely good at the $10 level and I personally find the $20's to have a tougher skill level than the $10's but not much worse.

To show you an example, my ROI for $10's is 47% over 87 tourneys and for the $20's it is 29.7% over 150 tourneys. Now granted these are obviously different sample sizes, and 47% is bound to go down, but that is a significant enough difference.

Also, I don't know how anyone can state that PP is all about luck and etc. Many posters here are long term winners (and even BIG winners) on PP. Over the long haul I don't think that can all be luck.

Will

[A J Carisse]

Let me clarify this. I'm not saying PP SNG's are all about luck. What I am saying is that luck factors into it too much for my taste. I'm glad to hear that many are beating these games at a good level of return. And that does take skill believe me /images/graemlins/smile.gif These are TOUGHER games to beat in my mind compared to some other sites. And it's because it often comes down to what kind of cards you are getting in the later stages.

If you find that this isn't the case for you, let's hear how some of you deal with it effectively.

A.J.

[w_raedy99]

I personally find AleoMagus' guide to be very close to my strategy for the most part. I play a few more hands in the early levels than he suggests but I am very careful how I play pre-flop.

I find that if you show discipline in the early rounds and are willing to become very aggressive later it throws most players off. I would also say that it definitely depends on the game. Some games wittle down to 4 players very quickly which allows you to use more skill imo. The games where you get down to 7 players with 100/200 blinds definitely do include more luck, but I find these to be the exception not the norm in the $10 and $20's.

Other than that, I guess the only other thing I really rely on feel. Sometimes I will make laydowns that I know many others would not, or calls that I usually wouldn't make on 'feel'. On the internet it is hard to really 'feel' much other than going by raising patterns and history I admit but it seems to work for me most times as I end up folding QQ to KK or calling AJ to someone's AT.

I know this does not say much, but hopefully it is something. Btw - as to your question about pushing standards at 300/600, usually this will either be almost all of your stack or even still about 1/4 to 1/5. Given this, you will probably have much lower pushing standards than normal imo. I find that by the time I get to 300/600 it is very often HU if not at least 3 players. In this mode, I think playing position and being aggressive usually pays off.

Will

[A J Carisse]

Thanks for the reply Will.

I admit that I didn't play too many and maybe the ones I did were tougher than normal. And at the time I was playing at a lot easier site where you could finish in the money a lot without pushing your luck too much.

My philosophy though is that I dislike having to push big time too much with questionable hands. Some of you might say this is the nature of the beast, and it may be at PP, but you're risking a lot when you push small edges with your life on the line. Coin flips aren't where it's at when you're looking to make money.

What would invariably happen to me at PP with the ones I didn't place was I'd have to go all in several times and eventually my luck would run out, in spite of having the better hand PF in most cases. And the other option was to get blinded out. So not my cup of tea perhaps. Maybe I'm shooting for a higher return than what can be obtained on this site though.

Here's a tip that some of you might not be aware of. Big time blinds is an advantage on Fri and Sat night, when many players are drinking heavily. Often you can watch them cut their own throats, and hang around to collect the spoils without doing a whole lot.

A.J.