I don't know how to play hands like this.

[Nick C]

Reads: I'd fallen behind on the river a couple of times (to someone who isn't in this hand) and had bet and called a raise and wasn't in a particularly good mood.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO (poster) 3-bets</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (13.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

I didn't like suddenly checking once the turn card came, but what do you think?

[private joker]

Why cap it PF? Once he 3-bets, consider calling unless your read is that he'll 3-bet inferior hands to AQs, like KQ or AT.

Then when that flop comes, I can't see what hands he'd 3-bet with PF that you're now beating. You're behind to AK, KQ, KJ, JJ, KK, QQ, AT, etc... I think he'd have to have specifically AJ or TT of potential 3-bet hands for you to be ahead (and TT has a nice OESD). It's interesting that he only called your flop bet -- but if that makes you wonder what he has, you have to bet the turn and fold to a raise.

[Nick C]

CO was a poster who had just joined the table. I had no read.

All the same, your points are well-taken. I'm not sure I can fold to a turn raise though . . .

[rt1]

With this many people in the pot for 4 bets preflop your hand is no good. You have mid pair top kicker... not strong here.

You should never cap AQ out of position preflop. Also, you are capping out of position vs an unknown. I think you played this pretty bad.

I cant think of a hand that 3 bets and folds on this flop, read the other dudes post above mine.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
You should never cap AQ out of position preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This should not be a hard and fast rule. There are situations where you ought to be capping AQs preflop out of position.

How about these situations at a table with one erratic player and a ton of coldcalling loose passive morons:

You are UTG+1 and raise AQs after a lunatic limps UTG. Five players coldcall and both blinds come along. UTG now limpreraises. You have seen him limpreraise 4 times this session, all with hands like 76s and 44.

Or the same situation in terms of lots of coldcallers, but with a button who 3-bets anything in this spot because he loves playing in big pots?

scrub

[scrub]

Despite my post in this thread about how it's sometimes correct to cap with AQs, this is not one of those times. Just call preflop.

Given how you played it preflop, I think your line was about the best you could have done. If you are running good, CO had TT and UTG had QT, or you split with another AQ.

scrub

[Nick C]

Thanks for the responses.

When I capped preflop, my thinking went something like this: I wouldn't want to raise again heads-up against my own 3-betting hands, but whatever CO's standards may be, he also may have relaxed them, since he'd already posted and could continue to play at a discount. Also, I figured I had a good multiway hand, and there were four of us in.

Still, I think the cap was kind of reckless. And I certainly didn't know what to do, once I saw the flop.

It worked out for me this time, though. UTG had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, CO had T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif, and I took the pot with my queens up.

[Jonny Melon]

[ QUOTE ]
you have to bet the turn and fold to a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Under no circumstances should you fold the turn to a single raise. Look again.

Jon

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
wasn't in a particularly good mood

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll join the chorus and say the preflop cap is bad. Were you tilting?

Once the flop hits, preflop is history. You are free to make a new plan. Never forget this.

You have a moderate strength mixed hand in a big multiway pot. It will occasionally be good and you have nine murky outs. You are ideally positioned to act last while the 3-bettor drives the hand.

Checkcall and draw, checkcall and draw, checkcall and showdown. Easy hand.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Were you tilting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think I was. I guess I started to come to my senses on the turn, though.

[ QUOTE ]
Once the flop hits, preflop is history. You are free to make a new plan. Never forget this.

You have a moderate strength mixed hand in a big multiway pot. It will occasionally be good and you have nine murky outs. You are ideally positioned to act last while the 3-bettor drives the hand.

Checkcall and draw, checkcall and draw, checkcall and showdown. Easy hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
checkcall and showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can check-calling the river possibly be correct? I'm not accepting it as an excuse to avoid a difficult decision facing a river raise because:

a) You rarely get raised on this river when you wake up and bet and
b) Whatever you do, it's going to be a small mistake at worst (provided you don't 3-bet).

But checking this river is a large mistake which happens often (due to value betting and position and checking through worse hands and betting better hands and all that), I'm not willing to make that large mistake to try to avoid a small, rare mistake.

[slogger]

As others have no doubt said, don't cap this pre-flop.

I don't mind your flop bet, but there is something to be said for the fact that there are very few pre-flop 3-betting hands you're ahead of here. Check-calling one bet on each street with your gutshot is not horrible, but given that you'll be splitting this pot at least two ways when you hit your T, the decision to call the turn is closer than most would think. Getting almost 13-to-1, it's wrong to fold the turn (but your true odds are probably more like (7 or 8-to-1).

Also, a little posting advice.

[Sarge85]

Hmm....

I'm going to go out on a limp here and say the cap isn't all that bad. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

edit: Assuming you play well post flop

With the dead money that UTG and MP seem willing to throw in the pot - I think you have enough hand to push the pot here. With just two hands that look like dead money, its probably marginal, but if you had one other person willing to contribute to the pot - I think not capping would have been a mistake.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
How can check-calling the river possibly be correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
I gave a plan that started at the flop and ended with checkcalling on the river. The river is a long way off. Just so we are arguing about the same thing, lets assume that small offsuit cards hit on the turn and river, the pot is now 14 BB, and Villian has successfuly driven out the other players so we are heads up. Sound good?

IMO the choice here is between check-calling and check-folding. You were 3-bet preflop and are now behind AA-JJ, AK, AT, KQ, and KJ. You are ahead of TT-88 and AJ and splitting with AQ. He bet both the flop and the turn despite the fact that TT/99 especially might have taken a free card with their outs.

The case for checkfolding is that he will rarely have and bet a worse hand. Not a bad argument and I don't object to it. But I won't discuss it further because I contend that checking is better than betting even if you plan to call a bet based on the following inequality:

Induced_bluffs + undeserved_free_showdowns &gt; worse_hand_calls

The righthand side is the money you stand to gain by betting and being called by a worse hand. It is small because he rarely has a worse hand and may not call if he does (especially with TT-88).

The lefthand side is the money you gain by checkcalling. It includes the occasional bluff by a worse hand such as TT. But primarily it includes all the bets you save when your opponent chickens out and fails to bet the best hand. Because we have no read on this opponent we must fall back on our general experience which is that this mistake happens all the time. This is an extremely scary board and many players will conjure up some monster as an excuse for not betting the river.

[ QUOTE ]
You rarely get raised on this river when you wake up and bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given the nature of the board and Villain's potential hands, getting raised is quite likely.

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you do, it's going to be a small mistake at worst (provided you don't 3-bet).

[/ QUOTE ]
Justifying the bet with this statement is a mathematical fallacy. If your claim is true than betting is automatically a serious error.

You are claiming that the EV associated with calling the raise and folding to the raise are approximately equal. That's what it means to say that whatever you do is a small mistake at worst.

The EV associated with folding to a potential bluff raise is hard to determine. However I know the approximate EV of calling the raise. If you bet and call a raise you have lost nearly an entire BB compared to checkcalling because you will rarely win after being raised. If calling the raise is only a small mistake then the loss associated with betting and folding to a raise must be almost as bad.

I can't afford to lose nearly a whole BB every time I bet in this situation and get raised. You can't possibly bet if calling a raise is correct or even close to being correct.

Fortunately your claim is probably wrong. Calling a raise by an unknown player with our pathetic hand looks like a big mistake. We will be good here approximately never. Still, any losses due to being bluff-raised off the best hand do count against your profit from betting. That makes the final inequality:

Induced_bluffs + undeserved_free_showdowns + bluff_raise_losses &gt; worse_hand_calls

I don't think this decision is even very close without a read. The lefthand side just has to be bigger.