Foxwoods Main Event Hand

[Luke Riddle]

This was my first major tourny. I have won lots of $100 and under tournys in Vegas and a few other spots as well as the internet. I went in knowing I was dead money but good enought to get lucky if the cards fell and get the buyin back maybe. My image by the time this hand came up was relativly weak. Players at my table knew I was green but I had only called down one hand and it ate up most of my stack. I battled back to 6000. Early position raiser seems to know his way around a tourny and everyone in it. He had been making opening raises all day for about three times the BB. He got reraised alot and a few by me. He had made a big deal about me reraising him a little earlier.

I am one off the button and he is early. The blinds are 100-200 25 ante. He makes it 600 and I make it 2500 with AKo. Small blind thinks for awhile and then throws hand away. My guy comes over the top for the rest of his stack which is about 3600. I thought I had finally ran into a big hand against him but the idea that he was sick of me reraising him and maybe he was just making a stand with AQ or AJ at best, forced me to call. He had 99 and I failed to improve. And that was that.

I am clueless. Was the first raise too big? Could I have still laid it down? I know you want to stay out of coin flips but was I justified in thinking maybe I had him dominated?

[BiNgOsHaDo]

Let me say first of all, that it seems your whole demeanor in this tournament was one that would make it very difficult to win, or even finish in the money as you said your goal was. When you say "I went in knowing I was dead money but good enought to get lucky" you are pretty much settng yourself up for failure. I would much rather hear "I was excited and nervous about playing in my first big tournament, and I couldn't wait to see how well I could do" or something along those lines. Much more optimistic I think.

Now with that said, There are a lot of ways you can play the AK hand. In These types of tournies, where they are played over multiple days, and your stack is the size that is not being forced into action because of the size of the blinds, there are a lot of times where I will simply flat-call an early position raise, and take a flop with AK in position. My favorite reason for doing so is, essentiallly, if we both have the same hand, I am going to win when the flop misses us both. And when the flop comes all babies, you have a much easier time getting away from this hand than you would if you had say, 1010. (assuming he had a big hand)

Furthermore, even by reraising (which by no means is a bad play) you stand to win this pot outright a lot. But with someone who has been complaining about everyone reraising him alot you stand a good chance that he will finally pick a hand to make a stand with, and he did so with a less than marginal hand, 99. Bless his heart. This is another reason why I think flat-calling may have been a better play. By re-raising, you are essentially inviting him to play for all his chips, and with someone who is looking for that spot, I am going to take AA, KK, or QQ and let him. But AK, JJ, AQ, 1010, I will call him and play after the flop.
-BiNg

[Copernicus]

Given your chip position, which would be greatly improved by picking up his stack, and your feeling that you arent the tops in this tourney, a somewhat -EV play isnt out of the question here. Your raise is the same as an all-in for him, though, and something smaller that looks like your begging for a call might be slightly better with some extra "folding equity".

Flat calling is also an option, especially if you expect it to close out the action. However, if it lets 2 of the 3 after you play for a small portion of their stacks you greatly increase the risk of losing the hand, even if you flop TPTK.

Another factor is how tight he gets post-flop with scare cards on board. If he will fold his likely holdings (small pairs, connected paint, maybe some suited connectors) to an A or K on board then you may be giving up too much by flat calling

Its a close decision, and you didnt necessarily make the wrong one, despite the result.

It also sounds like you should have $2400 left...no cards until you had to make a desperation play?

[Rushmore]

The most important thing here is the fact that you believe you're dead money.

If this is true, and not merely an affectation designed to reduce your responsibility to play well and to alleviate any potential disappointment you might experience by losing, then I see no reason not to play the hand the way you did.

Sklansky goes into this a little in TPFAP, and it's really good advice, when making marginal decisions. To paraphrase:

Marginally -EV big calls/raises are OK if you feel you're outclassed at the table/tournament.

It's the equivalent of swinging away rather than trying to squeeze a run across when you're down two runs in the 7th and the unhittable closer is obviously coming in in the 8th.

Or something.

[ToledoTommy]

AK is an excellent hand and I don't think you made any real huge mistakes. That's just the way things fold. You're going to have to win races to do well in poker tournaments. Fossilman was very good during race situations during the WSOP. Nothing wrong with your play in my opinion.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If you're going to make a bet/raise that constitutes 42% of your stack, you're usually better off going all-in instead. That is, your 2500 raise should have been all-in, or smaller (like say 1800). Personally, I see nothing wrong with all-in here.

Also, he made a big mistake reraising you all-in. He should've done the stop-and-go, or folded.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[ToledoTommy]

Fossilman is probably right. Going all-in would have been a better move. Remember there are only two hands that really have you slaughtered and you are probably going to call an all-in reraise anyway. Take the initiative and you can pick up the pot right there or most likely you're looking at a race at worst.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, he made a big mistake reraising you all-in. He should've done the stop-and-go, or folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because Hero is clearly committed, so there's pretty much no chance of our opponent winning without a flop?

If this is correct, our opponent would be calling in the hopes of flopping a set or a low board to push at, obviously. If he puts Hero on AK, AQ, or a pocket pair, what non-9 boards is he confidently pushing his chips in on, or at least taking a stab at? No ace, no king, preferably no queen (but taking a stab nonetheless)...

I'm thinking that the "fold" portion of your suggestion is preferable to the stop-go, especially at this position in the tourney.

I think our opponent's situation is a good situation to get the hell away from, especially against this player.

I hope I am not wrong.

[ToledoTommy]

The opponent either thought Hero was completely bluffing or holding two overcards. The latter is most likely true and the opponent didn't mind gambling in a race. Of course he could be a four-to-one dog at the point. I'd be hard pressed to call an all-in raise by Hero.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is correct, our opponent would be calling in the hopes of flopping a set or a low board to push at, obviously. If he puts Hero on AK, AQ, or a pocket pair, what non-9 boards is he confidently pushing his chips in on, or at least taking a stab at? No ace, no king, preferably no queen (but taking a stab nonetheless)...


[/ QUOTE ]

The board is immaterial to the stop and go. A stop and go is an all-in, done in two bets. You go all in on the flop no matter what the board looks like, and hope/pray the board missed your opponent. It's better than an all-in if you think your opponent can't get away from calling pre-flop, but may fold on the flop.

[DesertCat]

Maybe I should add, that I think what Greg was saying is that the poster was priced in with many reasonable hands (certainly AKo) by the raiser's all-in, essentially getting 2-1. By waiting to the flop to push, a missed flop may not give the caller odds to call. If the caller had hit the flop, oh well, raiser has the same result as a pre-flop all-in.

[ToledoTommy]

Stop and Go seems very dangerous. I would try to contain my opponent before seeing a flop. There would be few reasons to do this kind of move but I'm sure they exist.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
My favorite reason for doing so is, essentiallly, if we both have the same hand, I am going to win when the flop misses us both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on this? What if he bets out on a raggedy flop, which often happens? You're forced to fold, no?

[jayheaps]

i think the answer is move all in or call. if you move all-in you will like take the pot down immediately. by just calling you will be able to get away from your hand cheaply. personally, i like calling with AK in middle stages of tourneys especially if i know the EP raiser is not raising light.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to make a bet/raise that constitutes 42% of your stack, you're usually better off going all-in instead. That is, your 2500 raise should have been all-in, or smaller (like say 1800). Personally, I see nothing wrong with all-in here.

Also, he made a big mistake reraising you all-in. He should've done the stop-and-go, or folded.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, but the bottom line is, you played it right by forcing him to decide whether to gamble with all his chips. With 99, he rates to be a small favorite or a big dog. He chose to gamble, he got lucky that you had AK and not a pair, and he got lucky again to win the coin flip.

As for your opponent, Greg is clearly right that the stop-and-go is better than raising all-in preflop. If he calls, he has 1100 left and there is ~5000 in the pot, meaning it will never be correct for you to fold on the flop no matter how badly you miss. So if he gets you to fold on the flop any nonzero percentage of the time by employing the stop-and-go, it was a profitable play.

[BiNgOsHaDo]

WHat I mean when I say that I will win if we both have AK, is that in position, and given the fact that we have the same hand, I am simply going to take this pot away from him more often than he is going to win it. Simply, If we both have AK, and flop a pair, we are both likely goin to put eachother all in (in this situation). However, if the flop comes babies, he can do 3 things. 1) Check. If he checks, I am firing. Maybe not a pot size bet, but I am betting nonetheless. 2) He can bet. By betting, he protects his hand, but I am going to raise him. You said this guy had been laying down a lot of hands to reraises, so I am going to give him that chance. 3) Go All In. Notice how I refer to this differently than betting. By going all-in, he might just win this pot from me, unless I can correctly put him on the hand that he has, or AQ. So of the three choices he has, I stand to win this pot more often than he does.
-BiNg

[aaronjacobg]

was david williams's move w/ 55 at the final table an example of stop and go or did he have a different idea of calling off half his chips?

Jake

[slickpoppa]

Well, DW checked the flop in the dark, so he could not have been thinking of the stop and go.