internet chat tells at small NL tables? some thoughts

[bholdr]

At the lower buy-in online NL tables (10, 25 & 50$) I always see a lot of chatty players and I am wondering how to spot tells in their chat. (at the bigger tables people seem to have more restraint with their chat) Here's a few things that i've noticed:

1- People that dare you to call when they overbet the pot generally have the nuts (only terrible players seem to pull stunts like this)

2- when a real chatty player bets and then clams up they are usually bluffing

3- when somebody says something like "lets gamble" or "i'll risk it" preflop they have a premium hand

4- the more they chat during the play of a hand, the better their holding is.

I geuss this all comes back to the general idea that weak players (most everyone at those buy-ins) try way too hard to disguise their hands (strong means weak, etc)

here's a couple more;

5- Angry players = profit (i go after them like crazy)

6- table coaches = profit (when they tell you their whole strategy, they're pretty easy to beat)

7- genrally, (very generally) the more a player chats, the weaker they tend to be. (they're there to have fun)

points 1 and 5 are the only ones i am fairly sure of, what are your thoughts on those and the others?

Also, what clues in a person's chat indicate a player that is on tilt, drunk, etc?


My goal in making this post is to discover how to observe a person's chat in order to further my book on them, to discover their tells, and to avoid making the same mistakes myself.

thanks in advace for your thoughts.

note: i posted this on the "internet gambling" forum but got no response is this the right place? was that? is this just a dumb post?

[fimbulwinter]

i really shouldnt give this away, but here's a few more:

to spot a shark:
look for the guy folding a lot preflop, with a big stack who either

1. doesnt chat at all, even when spoken to. he plays a ton and is there for the $, not the social experience.
2. chats a lot about ANYTHING BUT poker. he greets those who come to the table and tries to get everyone actively involved in conversation, not a poker game.
3. says things like "wp" and "nh" to a fish who just got lucky. anyone who has been playing well and then turns around and congratulates someone on a play that was patently bad is someone who is eyeing your stack too.


on the flipside, try to be one of the above guys. social engineering can, on occasion, add more to your EV than even the most perfect of play.

anecdotally, i was at a 200NL table where one of the regs talked a guy into pushing preflop every time he was in the BB. he pitched like 8 buyins in the course of 30 mins and loved every minute of it. be that guy.

fim

edit- yeah, this is the right place for this post.

[bholdr]

very good one fimbulwinter i like point 3 esp.

[soah]

Players that claim to be drunk (or make any reference to it) seem to be telling the truth, as far as I can determine from their subsequent play.

[Sweaburg]

bholdr...I'd say you've got a good handle on picking up chatting tells. Add in Fimbulwinter's points and I think you're extracting about as much info as you can from chat. Nice list.

[beset7]

Concerning drunk players: be cautious. Not that I personally do this, but a lot of late-night people pretend to be drunk to induce calls. I've seen this work well with a lot

[Sandstone]

Turn your chat off and just try and to pay attention to the cards and the way they play. Worrying about the chat screen is just going to take your attention away from what's important.

[Sven]

I know I have seen people say lets gamble then after a few callers they ended up having premium hands! I also agree with one of the other posters comment if they are folding alot preflop with a med to big stack and they are not that chatty then that guy is out to make money! I would be watching him for sure!

[ricdaman]

I've been using that chat box for years to boost income. I use it to intice calls, and induce folds. Some examples:

Getting someone to bet (first to act) / call (last to act):

"What's ur kicker?"
When I put someone on top pair, and I actually have set or 2 pair or something.
"Damn"
When 2 flush cards flop, and they don't come on turn or river; same with straight. Used immediatly after the river card comes, to intice someone who's first to act to bet. Obviously, I have 2 pair or something, not a draw.

To induce a check (first to act) / fold (last to act):
"u lose"
Believe it or not, this works. It gets them thinking and scared.
"I wonder who has the higher flush /images/graemlins/smile.gif"
When I'm sitting on a pair or something and I know the other guy hit a flush, though probably not a high one. Typed prior to my making a bet / raise.

The above are only used occasionaly though. There are few situations and players that these work in anymore now that I am playing at higher limits, but they were gold at the PL 25 Party tables.

The ones I still use today, mostly on fish, are very close to what fimbulwinter wrote.

"nh"
when someone calls from UTG with 52o, hits a 2 on the flop, and another on the river, and takes down a 20 BB pot.
"well played"
usually fish don't know what "wp" means, so "well played" seems to work better.
"ur pretty good"
a little ego boost never hurt anyone.

Most of the time though, I'm trying to defend the fish from the constantly screwed jerks who want the whole world to know how bad the fish is.

"It wasn't that bad."
In response to something like, "You called with a 4 outer??? That's the worst play I've ever seen!!!"
"It WAS suited."
In response to something like, "YOU CALLED A 4-BET PRE-FLOP RAISE WITH 47s??? ARE YOU CRAZY???"
"[fish screenname], I think you play fine."
In response to, "You are the worst player I've ever seen." Again, a little ego boost never hurt anyone.
"He had a 35% chance of hitting his hand."
In response to, "I can't believe you chased that??? You had horrible pot ods. There was only 1 card to come, and with only 6 outs you called my pot bet!!!" The jerk usually responds to my comment by attacking me, and telling me how dumb I am to say something like that, at which point I respond back to them with, "You don't know what ur talking about. Shut up. He had the ods to call that." This of course serves the purpose of keeping the fish there, and putting the other guy on tilt at the same time!

Finally, to the good players, I will do anything to put them on tilt. I sometimes seem like a jerk at the table (and sometimes I am), but not because I'm a jerk, I'm just trying to make money.

(these comments are made when I am NOT in a hand)
"That is the worst call I've ever seen. What a moron. You are so stupid."
To a good player who makes that once an hour bad call.
"That is the most idiodic thing I've ever seen in my life. I can't believe you called the river. You are the worst player I've ever seen."
To a good player who made a good play, but got sucked out on, and called someone's river bet/raise.

Usually, I know when I've been sucessful in putting someone on tilt when they say, "ric, ur going down" or "ric, I'm gonna bust you" or "ric, ur mine now." They usually start playing 100% of their hands and if they are still paying attention, after about 1/2 an hour to an hour, they'll say, "ric, how am I supposed to bust you if you won't play a hand???" (obviously frustrated at my tight play).

P.S. Thanks for the heads up on what gives away the sharks fimbulwinter. I'll have to mix up my chat now about as much as I mix up my play.

[bholdr]

i think turning off chat would be throwing away ez money! it's the easiest way to determine if somebody's on tilt, and if you know they are, you can relax your calling standards against them.
one could also miss some very important clues as to their play, for example, the table coaches who give away their whole strategy! i often simply copy their little 'lessons' directly into my notes on them. this has been very profitable! turn your chat back on, you're throwing money away!

[bholdr]

before i read fimbulwinter's reply i was always privatly laughing at the people that complemented the fish for sucking out, and assuming that they were weak players as well.
this, i now beleive, was a pretty good sized leak in my reads of other players.
great point

[fireman664]

I have seen this 4 times, twice against me.

big all-in bet,
"if I fold, will you show?"

the 2 times i have seen this, the guy who pushed said "yes", and the other guy then called immediately.

the first time someone asked me, I said "no", then they folded. This last time it happened, I was holding the nuts, and figured I would try saying yes (had no intention of showing though). as soon as I said yes, he called.

I think thier theory is if you say yes your weak, and are happy they will fold, and therefore will offer to show to get them to.

just something else to look for.