Party Pooper

I seem to be gravitating toward a somewhat defensive strategy in very loose-aggressive short-handed games. The essential elements are:


1. Relatively tight-passive preflop play--unless I have a good chance to get headup (or steal blinds) by raising/reraising.


2. Relatively passive play on the flop, unless I have a big hand or can protect a vulnerable hand with a raise or check-raise. From early position, I do not often lead bet in multiway pots unless I want the preflop raiser to raise my bet and drive out the other players.


3. Relatively aggressive turn play--especially from late position.


4. Often calling down aggressive bettors with my small pairs (including check-calling from early position).


I am usually trying to opt out of the ramming and jamming that these guys often do preflop and on the flop in multiway pots, preferring to make most of my moves on the expensive street. In this way, I am more frequently able to cause my opponents to make big "fundamental theorem" errors.


This strategy appears to be profitable and to reduce fluctuations. I'm not sure it is the most profitable strategy, however. I have noticed that some of my aggressive opponents will adjust to my strategy (especially after I manage to win a pot or two), playing more conservatively when I've entered the pot. When this happens, I do feel a bit like a party pooper! Would I make more money by ramming and jamming with the gang whenever I think I may have a small edge?

You might make a little more money, but you'll add a lot to your variance. You might actually lose money if you're not comfortable with that style.


Tight/passive play will often work against loose/aggresive players. Since they're often playing aggressively, a lot of times they won't have anything, so they will in effect be betting your hand for you, as well as giving you position on them (when out of position, you check, they always bet, and you get to decide what to do).


On the turn it looks like you raise with your good hands. The thing to watch for is if they'll fold to your raise. If they won't, just play straight-forwardly, waiting for good hands, and putting in raises on the expensive streets. If they will, you can add semi-bluff raises on the turn.


You might want to mix things up a bit more on the flop. The way you've described your play on the flop, it sounds like your defining your hand too predictably. If they don't notice what you're doing, continue the same way, but if you notice your good hands are not getting paid off, then occasionally play the same way you would play your good hands with lesser hands. You don't have to do this often. The pot will determine the freqency. For example, if there are 7 bets in the pot after you bet, then if you play a sub-standard hand the same way you play your legitamate hands one in seven times, then an opponent cannot know whether he should fold a hand that would beat your sub-standard hands, but not your good hands.


Another example of mixing up your play on the flop would be to raise on the flop with a good hand, instead of waiting for the turn. If your opponents are used to you waiting until the turn to raise with your good hands, they'll likely put you on a not-so-good hand if you raise on the flop.


The main thing to do is see how they respond to your raises. If they fold more often than the pot-odds suggest, then you should semi-bluff a lot. If they tend not to fold, but call or re-raise, semi-bluff rarely, but consider playing strongly on the flop as you might be needlessly costing yourself profit. That is, if they will continue calling/raising you if you play strongly on the flop and the turn, then play strongly in both places. You're slowing down on the flop to gain more on the turn, which is a good plan, but maybe you can get more on the flop and the turn too.

I don't know what your nick is, but I have lately been getting killed by a few players that are using exactly your stratey to counteract my agressive play. The combo of 1 or 2 playing as you advocate mixed in with a few of the loose-aggressives has been deadly. I do try to adjust, but trying to get my share of the LAG and weak-tight players money I still get embroiled in conflicts with the likes of you too often.


In fact I am taking the rest of the week off to get-detilted as I took the agressive a bit too much into the loose level. The fact that people have wondered in chat if I have worn out my "raise" button is ok sorthanded. Unfortunately, I tilt by finding the "call" button way too often instead of "fold".


I think you are on the right track. I am going to try your way next week when I see the chance and see if I can post some wins and get my variance down too. I bet you are estatic to hear that, aren't you...


Thanks,

Treefrog

One thing you also should be able to do is steal some extra pots on the river.

Pretty much confirms was my intuition has told meand what you posted. The "rock" is kicking my hyper-aggressive "scissors" butt. Now where did all that "paper" go?


Treefrog

On the turn it looks like you raise with your good hands.


I will also make some thin value bets/raises as well as semi-bluffs. I have been able to make some opponents lay down their hands on the turn.


You might want to mix things up a bit more on the flop. The way you've described your play on the flop, it sounds like your defining your hand too predictably.


Well, most of the time I am checking and calling (or folding) on the flop, which reveals little about my hand. When I bet out or check-raise from early position, it does reveal that I have a good hand, but usually not so good that I want to be called. On those occasions when I do flop a very strong hand, I will mix up my play.


if they will continue calling/raising you if you play strongly on the flop and the turn, then play strongly in both places.


If my loose-aggressive opponents were also non-observant, I think the ideal strategy would be to play my strongest hands fast on both bettings rounds, and my lesser hands the way I've described (i.e., slow on the flop, fast on the turn). However, my opponents have exhibited some ability to adjust to my play.

Well, it was "the likes of you" that drove me nuts and forced me to develop this defensive strategy! LOL


I have also struggled a bit with tilt at the short-handed tables, pressing "call" too much. I occasionally felt like I was paying off like a broken slot machine!


I am going to try your way next week when I see the chance and see if I can post some wins


I'll be waiting. Perhaps I will see the chance to return to my aggressive ways!


-Mike

It's very tough to steal from most of these opponents on the river. I've had more success stealing on the turn.

It sounds like you have your strategy well thought out.


A basic idea is to watch how often your opponents will fold in response to your aggressive play on the turn. If they fold too much, continue semi-bluffing aggressively. If they adjust and call too much, shift to mostly aggresive play for value. The cat and mouse aspect of shorthanded play makes it fun (plus being able to play more hands). BTW with a hand that can't beat a legitamate raise, they should fold 2/P times where P is the number of bets in the pot after your bet.

What I was thinking was that if you are out of position heads up and your opponents are adjusting to your strategy by not throwing their money away on the turn if you both check on the turn a bet with nothing would win often enough on the river.

I "have a feeling" you play the 10-20 and I rarely play above 5-10, but maybe we endup butting heads on a rare occasion.


Shorthanded 10-20 tables killed me as there were players that could adjust faster/better than I could. Not all of them, but some. I had never had that happen at 3-6 and rarely at 5-10. I sit at a short 10-20 table now only when it has just weak-tight (preferrably short stacked) players on it; I learned my lesson (at least until I improve some more).


I am actually Hopper on Party, because Treefrog was used (go figure). I don't suppose I care if you guys know who I am. I am not targeting you guys.


Play your best,

Treefrog

BTW with a hand that can't beat a legitamate raise, they should fold 2/P times where P is the number of bets in the pot after your bet.


Wouldn't any such mathematical advice be premised on an assumption regarding the frequency with which I bluff?

I've played little 5-10, having pretty much jumped from 3-6 to the 10-20 level. The few 5-10 games I played in did not seem much easier than 10-20, though perhaps my 10-20 game selection has been better. I haven't seen much weak-tight play at the shorthanded 10-20 games. Therefore, I've tended to join relatively wild games.


Good luck!


-Mike

I don't know...these are tenacious bastards! I'm more likely to try a river steal from late position by raising my opponent's bet when I think he is weak (but I'm probably weaker).

The point is that with this calling frequency, it doesn't matter how often you bluff and that is what makes it optimal. This also works the other way around: if you chose the game theoretically optimal bluffing frequency, it doesn't matter how often your opponents calls - your EV will always be the same.


cu


Ignatius