KK hand with Ace flop

[Sephus]

Villian is LAG.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (9 handed)

MP1 ($40.75)
MP2 ($24.5)
MP3 ($25)
Hero ($27.25)
Button ($167.5)
SB ($24.5)
BB ($25)
UTG ($38.6)
UTG+1 ($36)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to $5.5</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($12.75) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $15</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $21.75 (All-In)</font>, Button calls $6.75.

Turn: ($56.25) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($56.25) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $56.25
<font color="green">Main Pot: $56.25, between Hero and Button.</font>

[TheTimeIsUp]

This is most likely read based. It looks like he was trying to steal the pot on the flop, so I think you have some odds to play here. Does he usually raise with a hand like AQ AJ AK?

[Sephus]

i have only been at the table a few hands and havent seen him go to showdown. he's overbet just about every flop and gotten away with it.

[fimbulwinter]

why are you calling against a LAG with the 2nd nuts?

fim

[Sephus]

because i expect him to keep betting until i raise and if he bets the pot on the flop, he's pretty much committed.

[okayplayer]

You'd be a lot better off getting your money in there PF. I'm assuming you think he has QQ (if he's LAG he could have any ace)? I don't really like the c/r on the flop (unless you are certain of your read), because there's no way he's folding for like $6. If you're certain he has QQ then push PF he'll call. If you're going to call PF, then you're better off betting the flop - and if you're married to your hand then you might as well push on the flop - though I'd prefer a 2/3 pot sized bet and you could fold to a raise that way. But a push could get him to reconsider the strength of his Ace...

[Sephus]

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You'd be a lot better off getting your money in there PF. I'm assuming you think he has QQ (if he's LAG he could have any ace)?

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no, i have no idea if he has QQ. i think he could have a moderate range of hands.

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I don't really like the c/r on the flop (unless you are certain of your read), because there's no way he's folding for like $6.

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i don't expect him to fold, obviously.

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If you're certain he has QQ then push PF he'll call.

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how on earth could i be certain he has QQ based on 1 PF reraise by a LAG?

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If you're going to call PF, then you're better off betting the flop - and if you're married to your hand then you might as well push on the flop - though I'd prefer a 2/3 pot sized bet and you could fold to a raise that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

but he's a LAG who has reraised preflop. when you're LAG and you reraise preflop, you bet an ace high flop when it's checked to you. if he has an ace he's not reraising preflop and then folding on an ace flop with these stacks. i think pushing the flop is absolutely horrible for these reasons. he will call me with an ace and fold hands that i'm beating. what am i missing?

[ QUOTE ]
But a push could get him to reconsider the strength of his Ace...

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't a push by me just stink of weakness? after all, if i like my hand, don't i expect him to bet if i check? if i really have AK, for example, why do i want to give him a reason to fold?

i probably should have given more info about the villain than just LAG. by LAG i meant i'd been at the table for about an orbit and i'd seen him overbet the pot on most flops while playing about half of his hands.

as a sidenote, part of the reason i leaned toward pocket pair is that to reraise preflop with one ace most people want AK, and i had 2 of the kings.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
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You'd be a lot better off getting your money in there PF. I'm assuming you think he has QQ (if he's LAG he could have any ace)?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i have no idea if he has QQ. i think he could have a moderate range of hands.

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I don't really like the c/r on the flop (unless you are certain of your read), because there's no way he's folding for like $6.

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i don't expect him to fold, obviously.

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If you're certain he has QQ then push PF he'll call.

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how on earth could i be certain he has QQ based on 1 PF reraise by a LAG?

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If you're going to call PF, then you're better off betting the flop - and if you're married to your hand then you might as well push on the flop - though I'd prefer a 2/3 pot sized bet and you could fold to a raise that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

but he's a LAG who has reraised preflop. when you're LAG and you reraise preflop, you bet an ace high flop when it's checked to you. if he has an ace he's not reraising preflop and then folding on an ace flop with these stacks. i think pushing the flop is absolutely horrible for these reasons. he will call me with an ace and fold hands that i'm beating. what am i missing?

[ QUOTE ]
But a push could get him to reconsider the strength of his Ace...

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't a push by me just stink of weakness? after all, if i like my hand, don't i expect him to bet if i check? if i really have AK, for example, why do i want to give him a reason to fold?

i probably should have given more info about the villain than just LAG. by LAG i meant i'd been at the table for about an orbit and i'd seen him overbet the pot on most flops while playing about half of his hands.

as a sidenote, part of the reason i leaned toward pocket pair is that to reraise preflop with one ace most people want AK, and i had 2 of the kings.

[/ QUOTE ]

bottom line here is that you're way overthinking this one. if you choose to slowplay preflop (your call is a slowplay) you must be able to dump it postflop. this is a requisite to slowplaying. if you call a raise preflop with AA and the flop comes two kings, you have to be able to lay down if you think he's got it. given that he's a lag and has shown a propensity to gamble (overbet flops, re-raise preflop on inadequate values) the +EV move here is a big re-raise or a push preflop.

your play should be part of a greater plan. choosing to deviate from proper play is fine IF you are prepared to deal with the consequences and increased variablility of the situations you get in. you may have won this hand, but your course of action is -EV against all but the most insane of players.

you're sitting on a small 50BB stack with the second best hand in poker. you're playing against a party lag with money to burn.

push.

fim

[greg nice]

a reraise preflop is usually AK or a high pocket pair. why did you committ to playing this for your whole stack with an ace on board and a pot bet? at best, you shouldve pushed preflop. at worst, you shouldve led on the flop and folded to a raise.

edit/
[censored] okayplayer said the exact same thing as me. ignore my post. reread his.

[Sephus]

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bottom line here is that you're way overthinking this one. if you choose to slowplay preflop (your call is a slowplay) you must be able to dump it postflop. this is a requisite to slowplaying.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. do you think i posted this hand because calling a reraise with KK and checkraising allin when an ace flops is my standard play?

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the +EV move here is a big re-raise or a push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he has AA, im in trouble if i call and im in trouble if i push. if he has QQ-JJ or even if he's fooling around with some junk hand, i will probably get his stack by playing passively because once he reraises, he will keep betting. if he has Ax and i decide i'm willing to checkraise allin on an ace high flop because of his abnormal aggression level, he gets my stack when he hits an ace or gets really lucky, but i'm way ahead and probably get his stack when an ace doesnt come.

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your play should be part of a greater plan. choosing to deviate from proper play is fine IF you are prepared to deal with the consequences and increased variablility of the situations you get in.

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when have i indicated i might not be prepared to deal with the consequences and increased variability?

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you may have won this hand, but your course of action is -EV against all but the most insane of players.

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it's one thing to say this, but what range of hands (with what probabilities) are you putting the villain on on each street?

what hands do you think he'll call a push preflop with?

what if you believe that he will make a big bet on the flop 90% of the time? this was my read. how much does that change your preflop/flop decisions?

edit: does it help to know that ive been making 10 BB/100 at this level for my last 30k or so hands by making the "fundamentally sound" plays? i'm not saying this to be like "i do well so that makes my play right" i just mean that i'm not looking for a very general philosophical analysis, i'm hoping to discuss under what conditions my line in this hand might be appropriate.

[Sephus]

okayplayer told me that pushing the flop after calling a reraise preflop might be a reasonable play. i think this advice is horrible no matter how many times i read it.

[greg nice]

why are you attacking everyone who is giving you advice on the proper way to play the hand?

and if you want to use the excuse that you went with your read, theres no need to make a post.

[Sephus]

villian shows K8 and mhig. i dont wan't to be results oriented, that's why i posted the hand. it's true that in this case for what he had i took the best possible line, i wanted to get feedback about how often people thought that would be the case.

i think the problem might be that, like someone said, my line depends too much on my read on what the villian might have and how he will play each possible hand reacting to my show of weakness by calling and then checking for you all to comment on it.

maybe my line was bad and i got lucky, or maybe it was good and you just had to be there. so far no one has done a very good job convincing me that it was poorly played, and i can't tell if that's my fault or theirs.

thanks, and more comments are welcome.

[okayplayer]

I said if you're married to your hand and are going to put all your chips in on the flop anyways, that you might be better off pushing on the flop - I reasonable person could lay down a weak ace here. I didn't say that I liked that play (I don't), but I don't much care for the c/r on the flop. I would've bet ~2/3 pot on the flop (assuming you're flat calling PF).
If you are trying to trap your opponennt with your hand by flat calling PF, I think you should do it when you have position. Here without position, you put yourself into a difficult situation on the flop. When he re-raises you, you have to put him on a (high?) PP or AK/AQ/AJ/AT (w/ him being LAG). He would probably call your push with most of these hands PF.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
why are you attacking everyone who is giving you advice on the proper way to play the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not attacking anyone. all im doing is communicating my opinions. if someone gives me advice and i don't question it, it's difficult to take. on the other hand if i defend my play as well as i can and someone is able to show me why i'm wrong, i've just learned something.

by the way, saying advice is horrible isn't a personal attack on anyone.

[ QUOTE ]
and if you want to use the excuse that you went with your read, theres no need to make a post.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't true. i'm not asking anyone to criticise my read itself, what i'm asking people to criticise is my line of play GIVEN my read. it's possible to "go with your read" and still not be making the best possible play.

[Sephus]

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I said if you're married to your hand and are going to put all your chips in on the flop anyways, that you might be better off pushing on the flop - I reasonable person could lay down a weak ace here.

[/ QUOTE ]

reraise preflop with a weak ace and fold to 2/3 pot when an ace flops? seriously?

[ QUOTE ]
Here without position, you put yourself into a difficult situation on the flop. When he re-raises you, you have to put him on a (high?) PP or AK/AQ/AJ/AT (w/ him being LAG). He would probably call your push with most of these hands PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the crux of the question. when the ace flops, it's a bad spot. i know it's bad. so maybe calling preflop puts me in a bad spot when the ace flops. but it puts me in a great spot when an ace doesn't flop, doesnt it? he's gonna bet. and even when the ace flops, i STILL might have the best hand.

he may be LAG, but pretty much everyone knows what a third raise allin preflop means, if he's screwing around he's gonna fold.

[greg nice]

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this isn't true. i'm not asking anyone to criticise my read itself, what i'm asking people to criticise is my line of play GIVEN my read. it's possible to "go with your read" and still not be making the best possible play.

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thats fine, but now that we know what he had, such a post is a waste of time for all parties. this guy isnt a LAG. this guy is a maniac/donator on crazy tilt. this guy could have any two cards. for anyone to give you advice that you would accept, you would have had to post 50 hands of background so we could see just how mind boggling his play really is. a true LAG could conceivably be reraising with Ax.

i cant believe i had to spell this out for you, especially given the results.

[Sephus]

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this isn't true. i'm not asking anyone to criticise my read itself, what i'm asking people to criticise is my line of play GIVEN my read. it's possible to "go with your read" and still not be making the best possible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats fine, but now that we know what he had, such a post is a waste of time for all parties. this guy isnt a LAG. this guy is a maniac/donator on crazy tilt. this guy could have any two cards. for anyone to give you advice that you would accept, you would have had to post 50 hands of background so we could see just how mind boggling his play really is. a true LAG could conceivably be reraising with Ax.

i cant believe i had to spell this out for you, especially given the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh...

i'd only been at the table for an orbit. of course i know NOW that he's a maniac/donator and not just a LAG, but the important thing is that i didnt have access to this information when i played the hand.

why would i give you information that i didnt have? all i knew is that he was loose/aggressive (maybe i should have said very aggressive), so i want to know if my play might be right against someone of THAT type.

i give you my read and my line, and you tell me under what conditions you think my line is right and wrong. it doesn't matter one bit what cards he actually held.

for example, say he's not a maniac, but just a LAG with QQ (who, say, folds to the checkraise). does this really change whether or not the hand is worth posting? i'm asking about how to deal with the information i have. i cant believe i had to spell this out for you. the results are not really relevant.

[okayplayer]

No I was saying he may fold to a push with a weak Ace (with a 2/3 pot bet you are atleast giving yourself the option of folding). But now seeing what he had - I don't think he would have. This guy is not a LAG, but a maniac (as greg nice) pointed out. And I would wait to get fancy with your reads a little longer than one orbit.
If you want to make that play, it is true, that with KK, most flops are going to look pretty good (about 1/5). So you took a risk, and still decided to put all your chips in the middle when your scare card hit. I think this play long term is -EV.

[Sephus]

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This guy is not a LAG, but a maniac (as greg nice) pointed out.

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why does it matter what he actually had? and he was LAG, just very L and very AG.

[okayplayer]

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This guy is not a LAG, but a maniac (as greg nice) pointed out.

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why does it matter what he actually had? and he was LAG, just very L and very AG.

[/ QUOTE ]
It matters because that gives me my read of him as a player. And seeing as how you haven't seen him showdown a hand - I want to know what hands you put him on. Did you put him on K8?

I think this post is going on too long...you asked for our comments and we gave them - take them or ignore them as you please, but it almost seems like you want us to praise your great read. Congratulations, nice hand.

[Sephus]

i dont want you to praise my read, my read was way off! i put him on AA-TT with QQ-TT most likely, then AQ and AK equally likely (25% of the time maybe).

but i thought i was ahead most of the time.

[ QUOTE ]

I think this post is going on too long...you asked for our comments and we gave them - take them or ignore them as you please, but it almost seems like you want us to praise your great read. Congratulations, nice hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think it works better when people analyze each others comments rather than just ask for and receive them. if you dont appreciate the fact that i defend my play, i apologize.

i dont want anyone to think that i'm not reconsidering the way i played the hand because of the way i've been arguing. i really am grateful for the discussion.

[greg nice]

the information you requested on how to play vs the player you initially described was offered. your play was bad. by you saying youre not convinced shows that youre biased by the results. if you were going to be stubborn about the responses, the post should not have been made to begin with. im done with this.

[okayplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont want you to praise my read, my read was way off! i put him on AA-TT with QQ-TT most likely, then AQ and AK equally likely (25% of the time maybe).

but i thought i was ahead most of the time.



[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, this is exactly what I was going for. So, you are slightly better than a 4:1 favorite on the QQ-TT (which you think is most likely) and ~2.3:1 for AK/AQ, and a big dog to AA. So, that is why it only makes sense to push PF, and I'm sure he'll call with all of the above hands (and every once in a while KK runs into AA, but reload and stack him later).

[Sephus]

hmm, i expected him to fold AQ, Ax, maybe JJ-TT or "crap" if i pushed preflop.

i didnt put this in my range, but i did think there was some chance he had something like JTs or even any 2.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
the information you requested on how to play vs the player you initially described was offered. your play was bad. by you saying youre not convinced shows that youre biased by the results. if you were going to be stubborn about the responses, the post should not have been made to begin with. im done with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's jumping to a conclusion. i could also be stupid, slow, correct, or there might be insufficient evidence.