Unknown players...

Hi all


I was playing heads up agaisnt a loose agressive player when an unknown player join us.. were then 3 handed and Unknown post the BB LAG the SB and im the button


Im dealt AcKs


I raise Sb 3 bets BB call i cap it and they call


Flop T T 4 rainbow


BB surprinsingly leads out after Sb check, i think about raisin but i just call and Sb folded


Turn 6 (no draws possible)


He bet i call


River 2


He bet i call


Please rate the play of both me and my opponent. Im new to shorthanded and need help!


Results to follow

Thank you

He shows 77 and takes down the pot...


He sure read me well..

He didn't have to read you too well, because nothing fell that was likely beat him. The only way you could beat him would be with a higher pocket pair than his, which wasn't likely, since you didn't raise him on the flop. Your most likely hand was Ace high.


The pot has 12 bets in it. Since there's a good chance you've got 6 outs if you're behind, which is only about 7 - 1 against, and some chance you're ahead, you're pretty much committed to seeing the hand through.


I think raising on the flop may have been a good play. Based on your pre-flop betting, your most likely hands were a large pair or A/high kicker. By calling on the flop, you're pretty much saying you don't have a pair. Raising might have gotten you a free card on the turn. He's not likely to put you on a T, but he might put you on a large pair. At any rate, it would have made your hand more difficult to read.

It's a reasonable play. He had to know his read was good because you never raised. When you capped, it indicated AK, AQ, or high pocket pair. He just figured you for two big cards and bet while his 77 was good. I don't think your calls were bad, but I might have made a move on the turn to get a checkdown on the river or possible fold. However, if my opponent is a LAG who will 3-bet easily, I might just call the whole way.


Mojay

BTW...I disagree with raising on the flop with AK every time. He wouldn't be betting into you without a pocket pair, a six, or a nice draw (not just gut straight) unless he's a maniac. He'd be afraid to bluff because you capped preflop and likely will call the whole way.


So, a raise on the flop would very possibly illicit a 3-bet and will probably pot commit your foe. I like a raise on the turn because it sets up later plays when you want to slowplay for a big bet raise, because it gives you some likelihood of your opponent folding on the flop, and because it allows you to take your free card on the river. I simply believe it is a more powerful play.


Mojay

I didn't comment on the AK re-raise, so not sure why you addressed your comments to me regarding that. In short-handed play it's important to vary your play, so there's not too many things you always want to do the same way in any case.


I agree with your comments on the turn raise. It is a more powerful play. It's also riskier against an opponent you haven't seen before. I like the play for all the reasons you give, but the first time I try it against a new opponent I like to have the goods. In my experience, by a large margin most opponents will not fold in that situation the first time. They'll pay to see what you have.


On the plus side:

a) Opponent may fold

b) You build bigger pot if you help at river

c) You may get it checked at river, giving a chance at gaining more at no cost


On the minus side:

a) Opponent may bet at river anyway, costing an extra bet

b) Opponent may re-raise

c) You could be drawing dead, and just throwing more money away.


At any rate, it's a good play and well worth mentioning.

Tewall, you said: "I think raising on the flop may have been a good play. Based on your pre-flop betting, your most likely hands were a large pair or A/high kicker. By calling on the flop, you're pretty much saying you don't have a pair. Raising might have gotten you a free card on the turn."


This is what I was referring to when I said I didn't agree with the AK raise on the flop. It's really not a bad play; I just would recommend a different one. I believe one problem is that the free card play will often not work because it is so common. Almost all players will defend against it. In other words, they play very aggressively on the flop and will only tighten up on the turn and river.


Here is why I prefer the turn raise (additional reasons). 1) You can pretty much assume a player betting into a preflop capper has something. 2) The fearless bet on the flop further demonstrates an aggressiveness that increases the chances of a 3-bet. 3) If you check the turn and you miss, your opponent will always bet into you on the river knowing you have only two big cards. You'll then be left with a tough decision to call or fold. 4) If you check the turn and hit, you will only get 1 more bet...maybe none. Your opponent will know what you have.


Truth be known, you will likely 4-bet the flop but get a free card on the turn and you will probably get paid off on the river if you hit. You still have a problem if you do not improve. What it mostly comes down to is that you are committing money on the flop when your opponent knows likely what you have (big pair or two overcards). You are not really in control with a flop raise. And you'll likely pay a high price for the turn free card, or worse, your opponent will 3-bet, causing you to cap, and then they'll still bet into you on the turn.


I believe a turn raise defines your hand better and puts you in control against all but the highest experts of shorthanded play. Usually, you lose no less when you don't improve because you get to check the river down. But you earn more when you improve and get paid off or when your opponent folds to you on the turn.


That's why 2+2 is great...differing opinion and philosophy.


Mojay

I agree with everything you wrote regarding the check-raise on the turn. I think it is often an excellent play. I like to use it the first time with a good hand because I find most players will not fold the first time it's done against them. Some will pop back. I like to show a few good hands, and see if they'll fold. If not, I'll keep using it. If so, then I've got this play available as a bluff. However, in this particular case the raise on the flop may have been better. I'll discuss why a little later.


Capping the betting there is an interesting question. It's true that theoretically you gain by capping with AK, but you may lose more than you gain by defining your hand. In short-handed play deception is very important. Since this was he had not seen before, he may have been better off calling. Of course it would be a good idea to cap occasionally with other hands than AK or big pair, so that capping doesn't tip your hand, and maybe the posted does do that. But in this particular case, this was a new opponent, who woudn't know that the poster might cap with non-standard hands, so he would certainly put him on big A or big pair, so perhaps calling would be better.


I don't agree that because the player bet into a capper means he had something. With any 2 cards, betting against an unknown opponent would be a good play. Since the bettor could very well have a T, a timid player might fold there, so bluffing is worth trying. The play only needs a 1 in 10 chance or so of working. With nothing against someone I hadn't played before I would bet and if raised, re-raise. I know he doesn't have a T, but he doesn't know I don't. My hope would be he would either fold, or I could get free cards on the turn and river. If I get re-raised again or bet into on the turn (and didn't improve), then it didn't work, and I give up.


(Going back to posters point of view, responding to flop bet) If you raise and are re-raised, there's nothing that says you have to continue. AK is only 6 outs, and maybe not that. You could be drawing dead, so folding is not likely to be a losing play (but only because you could be drawing dead. Against an unpaired flop, you couldn't fold.) In fact folding would only be bad against an opponent capable of bluff re-raising fairly frequently. By raising you may be able to get enough information to get away from your hand cheaply.


I agree with you about the free card play being so common that it's ineffecitive. I like to use the free card play when I really have a good hand, or when I'm on a straight draw with a 2 tone flop (especially if the straight draw is not obvious). That way if I catch the straight, it's not expected, and if a flush card comes I can represent a flush.


I don't think your idea is bad, however. I think both plays are worth considering. It's difficult to choose how to play against someone of whom you know nothing.

Havent read the other responses yet, so i might say some things that already have been said.


There are no draws, and no high cards on the board except the two tens. For the big blind an excellent board to see where he?Ls at and possibly to move you of a hand. He could have more hands than just a pair or something to do that; even two high cards if he thinks you can be moved of a big ace. I like your flop call; either with the intention of calling down without improvement (as you did) if he?Ls aggressive enough to bluff the whole way, or raising the turn and checking the river. Since there are 8BB in the pot when he bet the turn you want every other non-paired hand that has different cards than you to fold (so 6 outers). If he?Ls kinda weak and lays down too much to a turnraise (like smaller pairs) than a turnraise is much more favourable than just calling down. Note that it cost you the same if the plan works, and often it will work even if you?Lre beat by medium-small pocket pairs.


So I think raising the turn, checking the river has often the merits over just calling down, but calling down is not a bad play IMO if you vary it enough in similar situations that he cant read you easily. Folding in spots like this shouldnt cross your mind IMO.


Regards