Phil Ivey, PP $215ers, and "some of the best SNG players in the world"

[Desdia72]

in reading an article on Phil Ivey on Cardplayer.com, his thinking on what makes a player "one of the best" is along the lines of how i think. yes, he does believe the best players make the most money; however, he also makes that money playing AGAINST some of the best players in the World on a regular basis. my personal opinion on the $215ers on PP who are consistent winners is that they are the best SNG players on Party Poker. from the posts i've read, it's a combination of skill, mathematics, mastery of the quick blind structure, and table selection (avoiding too many other good players...hmmmm).

so i ask again, how does this make them some of the "best in the world?" if you can't gauge how you stand up against the best SNG players on a regular basis (not just Party's structure), then how do you consider yourself the best? a key thing that Phil I discusses about play at the higher limits is the "Psychology" involved and the ability of the players to adjust to anything you do. with that in mind, what kind of real "Psychology" is being employed knowing that you're specifically playing this table because the players are'nt as good as you and that you'll make money off them? how much is your "mental" being tested if you're consistently moneying over subpar players? i always felt a player i would consider one of the best is a player who could "adjust instantly to and play against ANY player: loose, tight, fast, aggressive, mathematical, methodical, passive, crazy, solid, whatever....AND WIN!".

[Grivan]

Your missing the key fact that when talking about the best SNG players in the world you narrow the field to basically people who play on Party Poker. This is because this is one of the ONLY places in the world that routinly spread higher limit SNGs. No place live does this, and as far as I know no other site online does.

When high level SNG players only exist on party it isn't a stretch to say that the best SNG players are also on party.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Your missing the key fact that when talking about the best SNG players in the world you narrow the field to basically people who play on Party Poker. This is because this is one of the ONLY places in the world that routinly spread higher limit SNGs. No place live does this, and as far as I know no other site online does.

When high level SNG players only exist on party it isn't a stretch to say that the best SNG players are also on party.

[/ QUOTE ]

they don't only exist on Party, PokerStars spreads them too. the highest they spread one table is $500 + $30 with two good players playing HU now, TheWombat and t soprano. the highest the spread HU is $5000 + $100.

[rjb03]

These games don't run very often. Well, not nearly as often as party's highest buy-ins run.

[Grivan]

A HU SNG is also very different then a normal SNG.

[Bremen]

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i always felt a player i would consider one of the best is a player who could "adjust instantly to and play against ANY player: loose, tight, fast, aggressive, mathematical, methodical, passive, crazy, solid, whatever....AND WIN!".

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that because of the fast blind structure the blinds become quite high quite fast. This leads to all-in fests where skill is not a determining factor.

[Desdia72]

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i always felt a player i would consider one of the best is a player who could "adjust instantly to and play against ANY player: loose, tight, fast, aggressive, mathematical, methodical, passive, crazy, solid, whatever....AND WIN!".

[/ QUOTE ]

which is another reason i question the notion "some of the best SNG players in the World". maybe that's a major reason why more players choose to play SNGs on Party instead of PStars and that's why the higher limit ones run so much more often.

The problem is that because of the fast blind structure the blinds become quite high quite fast. This leads to all-in fests where skill is not a determining factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Desdia72]

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A HU SNG is also very different then a normal SNG.

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the $500 + $30 SNG i was referring to is a one table SNG with 9 players. when i spoke of TheWombat and t soprano playing HU, they were down to two playing for 1st and 2nd. TheWombat won.

[Desdia72]

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These games don't run very often. Well, not nearly as often as party's highest buy-ins run.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not because they don't have the players to fill them. maybe the best players on Stars don't feel their +EV or +$ to play. i've seen quite a few good tournament players like Purr Of Aces, Scarface1, teecoy, JohnnyBax, and gank play the $109s to the $530s from time to time. who knows why they don't play them more. maybe it has something to do more with skill vs. skill instead crapshoot.

[Daliman]

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These games don't run very often. Well, not nearly as often as party's highest buy-ins run.

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it's not because they don't have the players to fill them. maybe the best players on Stars don't feel their +EV or +$ to play. i've seen quite a few good tournament players like Purr Of Aces, Scarface1, teecoy, JohnnyBax, and gank play the $109s to the $530s from time to time. who knows why they don't play them more. maybe it has something to do more with skill vs. skill instead crapshoot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If these guys are so good, and they want to prove themselves the best, why are they not constantly playing each other?

[viennagreen]

so-- do you think that the best SNG players on Stars-- the ones who don't think that it's worth their time to play there-- do you think that they don't have the capability to play at Party where it IS worth their time? Where do you think these great players that don't play on Stars DO play?

I'm not the best SNG player, not by far, but it certainly isn't worth my time to play at Stars. I make much MUCH more money playing at Party. Why wouldn't "the best" players make this same decision?

Also--- if you've ever played in a LIVE SNG, you'll find that the structure's are much more similar to Party's than Stars. The WSOP single table satellites, the Mirage satellites--- their starting chips and blind structure is closer to Party's than Stars. The closest Stars-like structure that I've played is at the Golden Nuggest (during the month of the WSOP-- I haven't been back and I'm not sure if they run them any time else). The blinds went up fast-- 10 min. rounds with a live dealer is many hands less than on Stars--- but you had 1500 chips to start with.

So, if you want to be a LIVE SNG specialist, Party/skins is still probably the best place to learn.

I just don't get where you think these "best players" are playing at, if not at Party.

You obviously have a problem with Party's blind structure-- and think of the games as more "crapshoot" than skill. But a player that is able to consistently make money in a "crapshoot" game shouldn't be possible-- right? So obviously it takes skill to beat the Party SNGs.

The best players will gravitate to the games where they can make the most money. That's Party.

[stupidsucker]

how many posts will it take before Desdia is on everyones ignore list?

[Bremen]

there are ignore lists? kewl!

[Desdia72]

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These games don't run very often. Well, not nearly as often as party's highest buy-ins run.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not because they don't have the players to fill them. maybe the best players on Stars don't feel their +EV or +$ to play. i've seen quite a few good tournament players like Purr Of Aces, Scarface1, teecoy, JohnnyBax, and gank play the $109s to the $530s from time to time. who knows why they don't play them more. maybe it has something to do more with skill vs. skill instead crapshoot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If these guys are so good, and they want to prove themselves the best, why are they not constantly playing each other?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe they practice table selection also. i have, however, run across a few $215 and $530 SNGs that had several good players involved in the same table. one table ($530) had gank (brett jungblutt), JohnnyBax, sheets, and thedonator. a $215 one that i watched had JohnnyBax, Exclusive, sheets, slugo5, and i think gank also.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
so-- do you think that the best SNG players on Stars-- the ones who don't think that it's worth their time to play there-- do you think that they don't have the capability to play at Party where it IS worth their time? Where do you think these great players that don't play on Stars DO play?

I'm not the best SNG player, not by far, but it certainly isn't worth my time to play at Stars. I make much MUCH more money playing at Party. Why wouldn't "the best" players make this same decision?

Also--- if you've ever played in a LIVE SNG, you'll find that the structure's are much more similar to Party's than Stars. The WSOP single table satellites, the Mirage satellites--- their starting chips and blind structure is closer to Party's than Stars. The closest Stars-like structure that I've played is at the Golden Nuggest (during the month of the WSOP-- I haven't been back and I'm not sure if they run them any time else). The blinds went up fast-- 10 min. rounds with a live dealer is many hands less than on Stars--- but you had 1500 chips to start with.

So, if you want to be a LIVE SNG specialist, Party/skins is still probably the best place to learn.

I just don't get where you think these "best players" are playing at, if not at Party.

You obviously have a problem with Party's blind structure-- and think of the games as more "crapshoot" than skill. But a player that is able to consistently make money in a "crapshoot" game shouldn't be possible-- right? So obviously it takes skill to beat the Party SNGs.

The best players will gravitate to the games where they can make the most money. That's Party.

[/ QUOTE ]

i tackled the issue of skill involved in mastering PP SNGs (because of a comment by ZeeJustin) in another thread and only got one reply by Daliman, which was'nt much a reply at all. Zee said it had to do with mathematics and did'nt go into depth about his comment.

also, i would'nt doubt alot of good PS players are playing SNGs on Party. there's one guy on PS named Tipsy, who i've seen do well in PS's $109s, who they say is very good on Party and UB as a tourney player. if GusHansen14 is XXRagedXX from PS, then now i know why i have'nt seen him lately.

as far as Party's structure vs. PStar's, it's gotta be more to it than that. but good point about the WSOP and live SNGs/satellites.

[Daliman]

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also, i would'nt doubt alot of good PS players are playing SNGs on Party. there's one guy on PS named Tipsy, who i've seen do well in PS's $109s, who they say is very good on Party and UB as a tourney player.

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Tipsy sucks.

[Desdia72]

...one $530 just finished and another one with Purr Of Aces, Radge (2004 WCOOP ME winner), iamlucky (3rd or 4th in 2004 WCOOP ME), teecoy, and donkey is waiting to start. quit a few good players in this one. HoldemPhil is also slated to play it.

[Desdia72]

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...one $530 just finished and another one with Purr Of Aces, Radge (2004 WCOOP ME winner), iamlucky (3rd or 4th in 2004 WCOOP ME), teecoy, and donkey is waiting to start. quit a few good players in this one. HoldemPhil is also slated to play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

and resident SNG 2+2er Chief911?

[Desdia72]

6 6 when i King hits the flop.

[Desdia72]

play big limit SNGs on Stars. all are running, the $109s, $114 Turbos, the $215s, and the $530s. alot of good players too like Purr Of Aces, teecoy, TheWombat, Radge (2004 WCOOP ME champ), and gambler21.

even a $320 or two.

[citanul]

i'm not seeing chief as online, nor a 500 running.

citanul

[lorinda]

the highest the spread HU is $5000 + $100.

I've seen $25000+(100 or 250) spread by request on stars heads up.

Lori

[Desdia72]

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the highest the spread HU is $5000 + $100.

I've seen $25000+(100 or 250) spread by request on stars heads up.

Lori

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and what about Party?

[Chief911]

Since someone brought it up:

http://www.bettheriver.com/image/500sng.jpg

Was a fun game.

[Desdia72]

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Since someone brought it up:

http://www.bettheriver.com/image/500sng.jpg

Was a fun game.

[/ QUOTE ]

congrats, i watched the whole thing.

[lastchance]

That's gotta be a nice payday.