funny little hand against good pro

15-30, 3 handed, 9am, played all night, game is breaking.


i had a hand against barry where i had KQ in the bb 3 handed, he raised on the button, i 3 bet, he called. the flop was KJ6, i bet, he raised, i called. the turn was a 4, i checked, he checked, the river was a 2, i bet, he raised, i 3 bet and he folded. i showed my hand and he said good hand i knew you had me. he said he thought his J was good, but knew he was beat when i 3 bet. i said how did you know that? he said he knew i wasnt good enough to reraise bluff on the river. that really hurt, he's right though. so i obviously need to improve my game.

Nice story.... but remember.. he might have been bluffing with that comment /images/smile.gif

Hello,Mike,

When your opponent raised the flop,what did U put him on ??


Sitting Bull

a J, a pocket pair, maybe just a good ace.


i like the way he played the hand. i like the way i played the hand too.


any comments by anyone?

He didn't pay for it? What were you hoping to gain by it? Had you been playing against him all night? Why show him your top pair when the game is breaking?

Hello,Mike,

If you put your opponent on:J,pair,or A,you had the BEST hand on the flop!

Why didn't you re-raise him??

Your weak play on the flop tells me that you do not have much confidence in your "reading" ability--

Try to develope more faith in your reading skills .


Sitting Bull

I think that Mike knew he had the best hand and was planning a checkraise on the turn or perhaps planning to rope-a-dope until the river. Obviously, when it's 3 handed, you have to use those types of plays now and then as well...you simply can't just 3 bet the flop here every time although when out of position, it is what you should usually do when you likely have the better hand on the flop.

I'd reraise the flop, else you give away too much to the free card play. Your top pair is strong...the only holdings you are worried about are KJ, AK, JJ, or 66. Personally, I think he would cap preflop w/ two of those holdings, if not all 4. So, your read was good.


His read of you was probably good too. His flop raise is typical and not indicative of a very strong hand necessarily.


Even if you don't reraise, going for the check-raise on the turn frequently will blow up in your face. And it almost did here.


I'm surprised you 3-bet the river here. Admittedly, the 2 and the 4 look like incredible bricks, but the only hands he could possibly raise on the river are K lower kicker (makes no sense b/c no turn bet), J with high kicker (probable), and missed draw bluff. I think the 3rd is most likely, meaning a reraise is useless.


Just my opinion...that's the beauty of shorthanded play...it can go so many ways.


Mojay

Hello,skp,

Barry could have had JT or JQ.

In this case,he was looking for information or trying for a cheap card on the turn.

If he had TQ or AT,his semi-bluff raise was excellent.

He could have improved to a set or completed his belly-buster.

He succeeded in obtaining a discount price on the turn.

But worse,Mike checked again on the river. Barry put Mike on K's after Mike called his raise on the flop.

Mike said that he played all night.

This is the reason why Mike was no longer playing up to par.

Many good players make this mistake:playing too many hours.

I believe it's the "vacation mentality"of driving several hours to a casino . One does not usually want to play just 3 or 4 hours.

If Mike continues to play all-night sessions,his bankroll will surely suffer.


...just as sure as I'm..

..Sitting Bull

"If you put your opponent on:J,pair,or A,you had the BEST hand on the flop!

Why didn't you re-raise him??

Your weak play on the flop tells me that you do not have much confidence in your "reading" ability--Try to develope more faith in your reading skills"


i have a lot of faith in my shorthanded game. ive made a lot of money playing shorthanded in live games (a lot relative to what i make in full ring games).


if i reraise him on the flop he may drop an A high hand right there. i just called on the flop to set up a checkraise on the turn. he foiled my checkraise on the turn but decided (perhaps in advance?) to raise the river figuring i wouldnt come over the top and 3 bet there without a hand that didnt beat him, but that he could trap me into calling with as little as a small pair or Ahigh "bluff" bet on the river when he raised. his fold on the river showed that he knew i wasnt capable of 3 betting with a hand worse than a pair of Js there, and my 3 bet on the river proved that i knew he was capable of raising with a lot of hands i beat on the river and that making it 90 there was good value 3 handed.


this was exactly the LAST hand we played for the session before we both cashed up. the third player had already announced she was leaving. im glad i showed my hand because i learned some things from him comments and now this post.


would like to hear more from everyone else. maybe im missing something here?

"Barry put Mike on K's after Mike called his raise on the flop."


then why did he raise me on the river?


it's okay sometimes to give free cards in heads up and shorthanded games because while you will very occasioanally get drawn out on and lose a pot, these pots are usually not very large and you will win back more then your share because you will have varied your play and deceived your opponents into giving you bets they had no intention of giving you when you have the best of it. deception is very important shorthanded. btw, notice that a raise on the flop for a free card in this pot (4 big bets when it gets to him on the flop) is a mistake from his position. it's not worth the one big bet here because it will have little semibluff value if i hold something like 99. a good player will usually not be folding that for one sb on the flop and once he checks the turn the jig will be up and he will called on the river. of course faking a free card raise would be smart deceptively here and that's what he was doing here. unfortunately for him i really had the goods.


i agree that playing long sessions can be dangerous but i was on the top of my game in this hand. i seem to play very well once ive caught my second win early in the morning. it's just me. im 28 btw.

"the only hands he could possibly raise on the river are K lower kicker (makes no sense b/c no turn bet), J with high kicker (probable), and missed draw bluff."


shorthanded by the river it's true that you can get a better sense of what your opponent might actually hold but against good aggressive opponents there are many more weaker hands then the ones you list that he could raise here with, and im not just referring to complete bluffs.


something i see regularly when playing a shorthanded live game (5 handed or less) is that even strong full game players who have read hpfap and have an understanding of how relative hand values change shorthanded and aggressive players fare better in these game, these players still do not adjust appropriately enough to short games. they dont value bet and raise enough, they give their looser more aggressive opponents much more credit then they deserve, they dont call with very little enough. in general, they play scared relative to the appropriate strategy to win in short and very short games. while not adjusting fully will not cost you a fortune and your relatively tight play will possibly even make you a certain winner against passive bad players shorthanded you will not reap the great rewards of the truly dominant shorthanded pros.


btw, this is not directed directly at iammojay, but it was sparked by his comments. and i think that NONE of what ive said relates really to 5 handed internet play as the rake is too high for me to know what to say about that. it should be noted that live short games, particularly 10-20 or higher in places where you pay time, are oftentimes a freeroll or very close to it, another reason they should be sought out.

Mike, fair enough. I know for a fact one of my weaknesses is occassionally giving too much credit to my opponents. But here's what I'm thinking. River play is not the same as flop or turn play. All the cards are out and there are NO semibluff opportunities...that limits the possibilities.


Your opponent semibluffs the flop. Maybe it's 3rd pair or 2nd pair or top pair w/ a weak kicker or a draw. But with top pair and an ace, he CANNOT check the turn, nor could he check the turn with 2 pair or better. That's a premise I mention to establish that you know by his turn check you are not beat, but I'll ignore the semibluff raise on the flop followed by a check on the turn. Let's focus just on the river.


First point. A value raise with 3rd, 4th, or 5th pair by your opponent is definitely out of line, because you would not call with a lesser hand. Hence, if your opponent has anything less than 2nd pair, he will not raise as a value play. That is why I lumped the 3rd category as a bluff...admittedly, I said missed draw bluff. My bad. I should have said that a raise with less than 2nd pair qualifies in my book as a bluff. If your advanced opponent (your description) KNOWS that you are a loosey type player that will call down w/ nothing, then maybe, just maybe his raise is an advanced value raise. But I'm betting that your advanced player will know that a raise on the river with less than 2nd pair is NOT hoping for a call...again, even if he is raising for value w/ 3rd pair or less, he WILL NOT call your reraise on the river.


And that is where this conversation gets really advanced.


Let's assume there is a possibility that a) you are beat b) he is losing and will call a reraise c) he is losing and will not call a reraise or d) you are beat but he will fold to a reraise. Now, your reraise must win an extra bet more times than it loses to break even.


In case a, you lose 1 bet.

In case b, you gain 1 bet.

In case c, you gain/lose nothing.

In case d, you gain a huge pot.


The truth is case D doesn't exist b/c no legit opponent will fold 2 pair in this sequence or an AK. Case A happens if you opponent snagged a set, two pair, a straight (God forbid), or holds AK. BTW...what do you do if he caps? Another discussion. Case C is the most common, but it doesn't figure into the occasion b/c you earn nothing extra by your reraise....Case C includes the occassions where your opponent was bluff-raising or value raising with 2nd pair or top pair w/ a less kicker AND is good enough to fold to your raise.


So, that leaves Case B, where you gain if he calls you and you beat him. How often does that happen? Well, in that scenario, his raise on the river by definition MUST have been a value raise. If it was a bluff, he'd fall in category C. So, he had to feel strong enough about his hand to raise you for VALUE and yet his hand must be weak enough so that he does NOT beat you. How many combinations of hands can you think of that fit BOTH these categories? I can think of two legit categories. K with lower kicker and J (2nd pair). Even with these two categories, his value raise on the river is slim, but it is possible. So, case A is more typical than case B, and you will lose more $$ by your reraise than you will win. It does not matter that your opponent could hold a wider range of holdings. It only matters that his range of holdings that would fall in category B is slim and outweighed by the losses you will feel in category A....everything else falls in category C...it earns you nothing if you reraise because he folds.


Summary:

In case a, you lose 1 bet. (Several possible)

In case b, you gain 1 bet. (Few specific holdings)

In case c, you gain/lose nothing. (Very often)

In case d, you gain a huge pot. (Never)


Now, I know I can sit here for five minutes and type all the scenarios. You can't do that at the table. But that's the point of this message board, isn't it? You get to prepare now for the situation that occurs later at the table.


I'm sorry if this sounds like a lecture. It is not intended that way...I just think you are coming with some good points, but you are one step shy in your thinking. I believe strongly in what I am saying, but I feel it is useless without a detailed description of the logic behind my thoughts. I really hope it helps. After all, there is ALWAYS more ways than one to see a situation....looking forward to your response.


Mojay


P.S. Your opponent was bluffing. A legit raise on the flop w/ 2nd pair would have followed with a bet on the turn and check on the river OR a check on the turn and call on the river (unless improved). Your opponent was full of it.

"with top pair and an ace, he CANNOT check the turn,"


this is not true. hpfap teaches that it's okay to sometimes check behind with big pairs. youre not very worried about being drawn out on as your opponent heads up will usually have very few outs against you and you can nail them on the river for two big bets because your hand is very well disguised when you check the turn here. this is an important way to vary your post flop play, especially shorhanded against decent opponents where youll both be zigging and zagging a lot.


as for the rest of your post it's very compelling and i have thought about this and think there is a good chance he was either bluffing or held something like JT or AJ. i think the chances he wouldve called with AJ and something like KT or Kx are strong though and i do believe he could have checked behind on the turn with something like KT in order to set up a river raise when i had something like a J or TT or 99 even. but i think the chance he was on a pure river bluff raise with AQ or something are also very good.


my river reraise was a mistake in the context that i should have realised that there were very few losing hands he could call with and that he knew i wasnt capable of bluff reraising (im not). most players ive played short against would call that reraise with almost anything, they wouldnt be good enough to fold even something as sad as A high there. they would feel pot stuck at that point. so in a sense my reraise was on autopilot, and autopilot is not a good thing to use shorhanded.

Thread's old, but I have a few questions.


Had you and barry played together all night? Were you ahead or stuck? Barry? How long had it been short handed? Had you played barry before?


If you were in the same situation with the same players and the same hand 100 times, how often would you check the turn? Anything else you would vary?


I like the way u played the hand. Excellent thread and comments. Interestingly, now you are good enought to bluff reraise on the river against a barry.

Had you and barry played together all night? Were you ahead or stuck? Barry? How long had it been short handed? Had you played barry before?


--i had never played against him before. i was ahead $3000. he was ahead a rack or so i think. he had only been playing about 3 hours, i had been playing 12 hours (all night). it was only shorthanded for about 20 minutes or so. there were 3 pros (including myself) and one fish. when the fish left we broke after about 10 hands. they were amusing hands because each of us realised we were butting heads with someone we really didnt have the best of it against.


If you were in the same situation with the same players and the same hand 100 times, how often would you check the turn? Anything else you would vary?


--it's hard to say because after several times we would each know each other's game in that scenario very well, right? it would become a lot of game theory in order to try and throw the familiar opponent. every street would vary. that's usually the way i like to play when ive been playing or will be playing the same people shorthanded for longer sessions: as soon as i sense they may be establishing patterns in my play i want to start randomizing here and there when it's not too dangerous (again, the idea of dangerous free cards and the like being a potentitally very costly holdover from full ring games).


I like the way u played the hand. Excellent thread and comments. Interestingly, now you are good enought to bluff reraise on the river against a barry.


--thanks.

I think the fact that this guy tells you anything about his understanding of your game means he's scared of you. A good player who really could run over other players tells them nothing about how he thinks they play. Unless he's just setting you up to think that he made that play and can sometimes throw away a hand like that for a small bet at the end. Maybe he was just testing his cardreading ability on you and he had nothing, and hoping you would show what you had. Sounds like he was just trying to save face, though, if he really did have what he said, and maybe trying to intimidate you. Besides, you played it as well as anyone could. Just because he knows you have him beat, doesn't mean you're not gonna bet it. Calling is not a better play. There's really no other way to add much deception on the river in limit, anyway.