Good Books?

[CNoyes]

I recently got started with poker by reading "Small Stakes Hold 'em" and playing online, but I am finding that it is hard to find the loose types of games described in the book. Therefore, I'm not doing as well as I had hoped. Does anybody have suggestions for future reading that will improve specifically my online game?

Some books I've heard about and are thinking about reading are:
Hold 'em
Hold 'em for Advanced Players
The Theory of Poker
Internet Texas Hold 'em
Winning Low Limit Hold 'em

I'm thinking that a lot of the books out there will just go over what I've already read in Small Stakes Hold 'em. What will give me some new info to be a pro at the low-limit online games?

[MarkL444]

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I recently got started with poker by reading "Small Stakes Hold 'em" and playing online, but I am finding that it is hard to find the loose types of games described in the book. Therefore, I'm not doing as well as I had hoped. Does anybody have suggestions for future reading that will improve specifically my online game?

Some books I've heard about and are thinking about reading are:
Hold 'em
Hold 'em for Advanced Players
The Theory of Poker
Internet Texas Hold 'em
Winning Low Limit Hold 'em

I'm thinking that a lot of the books out there will just go over what I've already read in Small Stakes Hold 'em. What will give me some new info to be a pro at the low-limit online games?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would read WLLH before SSHE if i were you, but with those books you mentioned, it looks like youre on the right track.

[CNoyes]

But which book should I go to next? Sounds like WLLH is too similar to SSHE for me to get that next...

[MarkL444]

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But which book should I go to next? Sounds like WLLH is too similar to SSHE for me to get that next...

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what limits are you playing, how much experience do you have. tell us more.

odds are im still gonna say WLLHE

[CNoyes]

Started with Super System, glanced through the chapters on Hold 'em, and determined it was above my level, so I returned it and got SSHE. That was a couple of months ago. I've been playing online. Started with fake money, did well. Then I moved to real money where I found the games to be tighter, and I'm not doing well nearly as consistantly as I was in the fake money. I am currently playing .1/.2 on Pacific Poker and .5/1 on Party Poker. I don't have a big bankroll (college student), so I need to stick to the low/micro-limit.

From looking around on these boards now, it seems that I don't need internet specific books. Sounds like Hold 'em is where I should have started my reading, but what's done is done. Sounds like I should get that next.

WLLH: I really don't want a book that's going to just going to be review from SSHE. Is it a lot different, or just same advice?

[Ed Miller]

I recently got started with poker by reading "Small Stakes Hold 'em" and playing online, but I am finding that it is hard to find the loose types of games described in the book.

While you won't often find the 6-8 players to a flop that I mention in my "Loose Games" chart, you will find the 3-5 players for my "Tight Games" chart... and all the postflop advice (the important part of the book anyway) will apply. Microlimit online games are really terrific games, and SSH was written specifically with those games (among others) in mind.

As for a next book, I suggest Theory of Poker.

[theghost]

How much poker have you played?

You should probably read TOP and ITH next.

TOP is great for the nuts and bolts of the game.

SSH is better than ITH, but ITH is still a good read. Concepts are explained well, and it will help with your absorbtion of various factors of the game overall.

You should also be revisiting sections in SSH as you encounter situations that you were foggy on. I also like to open it up to a random page just to find a point to ponder for a while.

As you get more experienced (at least 20,000 hands or so) you might want to check out Caffione's Middle Limit HE. Personally, haven't read it yet, but have heard good things.

Different books cover different parts of your game, so you pick them up as you notice that you want to (Psychology of Poker, Inside the Poker Mind, Real Poker II - Play of Hands, etc.)

Don't bother with Sklansky's Hold'em. HEPFAP probably doesn't apply to the games you're in now as much as SSH, may as well reread that before you get into HEPFAP territory. Some would argue that a full understanding of the concepts in SSH would eclipse the need for HEPFAP.

I like to read about poker because it keeps me thinking about the game, Mason's Essays books are good for quick shots to get you thinking. Also Roy Cooke's Real Poker II (whioch I mentioned). Good for thinking about hands and hand reading.

Good luck!

[captZEEbo1]

the party .5/1 is definitely close to the looseness SSH was written for. SSH should be good. But from what I hear Winning Low Limit Hold'Em works for that level too. The thing I've heard about Winning Low Limit Hold'Em is that you can be a profitable player using their strategy, but not NEARLY as profitable as using SSH. SSH encourages the tight-aggressive mode, and WLLH encourages the weak-tight. Most users of the board will say tight-aggressives are the best type of poker players for limit.

My guess is that you'd benefit from reading Theory of Poker.

How much hold'em have you played in general? A lot of problems people have are just playing too many hands, playing them out of position, never laying down hands to raises, not value-betting, or overvaluing their hand (not reading the board correctly).

[Freakin]

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the party .5/1 is definitely the looseness SSH was written for. SSH should be good. But from what I hear Winning Low Limit Hold'Em works for that level too.

My guess is that you aren't fully understanding SSH, and you might benefit from reading Theory of Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

WLLHE can work for any lower level, but it will not maximize your earnings. Folding KK just because an Ace comes on the flop when it was 4 bets with 6 callers preflop just doesn't make sense. WLLHE recognizes how bad SSHE players are, but it doesn't seem that it FULLY realizes it. I think that it makes too many assumptions and gives my opponents too much credit. My win rate increased drastically in the 15k hands after reading Majorkong's post & reading SSHE. The book is invaluable. Thanks again, Ed.

Freakin

[helpmeout]

Put SSHE down pickup WLLHE.

WLLHE is weak/tight but you are a beginner, it'll teach you the basic concepts, SSHE is likely to turn you into a LAG.

Read Internet Texas Holdem after WLLHE then Theory of poker.

Once you understand the game a bit and can beat the games read SSH again, now you'll be able to win a bit more money.

After SSH you'll be best to read Middle Limit Holdem, it'll tighten you up a bit and teach you how to avoid difficult situations.

If you are going well after that ask again.

[ayecappy]

for limit he Middle limit holdem by ciaffone/brier is INVALUABLE, period. It has some flaws such as a little too loose play regarding starting hands in some of the examples as malmuth addressed in his book reviews but it has over 400 examples in it and it is the one book that has improved my game the most.

[BSXX]

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Folding KK just because an Ace comes on the flop when it was 4 bets with 6 callers preflop just doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does he say this in his book?

Nevertheless, with 6 callers I think it makes perfect sense.

[supersub]

Here is what I should do if I could do it all over again.

Pick a book (I would choose SSH, but i guess you could go the conservative route and buy WLLH) and read it like five, six, seven or ten times.

Read, play, read, play, read, play, and repeat.

You probably don´t need more input right now. What you need is to better understand the advice that you have already been given.

I can fully guarantee that if you "learn" SSH or WLLH you will very easily beat the small- and micro games.

When you have this solid foundation you can go on and read more books. and you will appreciate the advice in those books more since you have a good idea on what they are talking about.

[Stormwolf]

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Folding KK just because an Ace comes on the flop when it was 4 bets with 6 callers preflop just doesn't make sense.

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Where does he say this in his book?

Nevertheless, with 6 callers I think it makes perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

6x4=24

[Freakin]

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Folding KK just because an Ace comes on the flop when it was 4 bets with 6 callers preflop just doesn't make sense.

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Where does he say this in his book?

Nevertheless, with 6 callers I think it makes perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

6x4=24

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K, i was throwing it out there as an example. call it 5 player in the pot total, for 20 bets. I shouldn't have posted anything that wasn't thought out when I'm surrounded by a forum of people who look for reasons to tear down their fellow man (or at least correct whatever he says). Thats what I love about you all. No, really; i'm not being sarcastic.

Freakin

[deacsoft]

Read Theory of Poker about 6 times and then move on to something else.

[pudley4]

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Folding KK just because an Ace comes on the flop when it was 4 bets with 6 callers preflop just doesn't make sense.

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Where does he say this in his book?

Nevertheless, with 6 callers I think it makes perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

6x4=24

[/ QUOTE ]

K, i was throwing it out there as an example. call it 5 player in the pot total, for 20 bets. I shouldn't have posted anything that wasn't thought out when I'm surrounded by a forum of people who look for reasons to tear down their fellow man (or at least correct whatever he says). Thats what I love about you all. No, really; i'm not being sarcastic.

Freakin

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Still can't fold.

[Jay36489]

I've read WLLH twice and now I'm looking for something more advanced. I hear all about this SSH. I just want to make sure this is the SSH I am hearing about "Small Stakes Hold 'em: Winning Big with Expert Play by Ed Miller, David Sklansky, and Mason Malmuth"

http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#Small%20Stakes%20Hold'em

[ayecappy]

yes

[Freakin]

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Folding KK just because an Ace comes on the flop when it was 4 bets with 6 callers preflop just doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does he say this in his book?

Nevertheless, with 6 callers I think it makes perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

6x4=24

[/ QUOTE ]

K, i was throwing it out there as an example. call it 5 player in the pot total, for 20 bets. I shouldn't have posted anything that wasn't thought out when I'm surrounded by a forum of people who look for reasons to tear down their fellow man (or at least correct whatever he says). Thats what I love about you all. No, really; i'm not being sarcastic.

Freakin

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Still can't fold.

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Thats my point. There's no way in hell I would fold that. That was my overexaggeration of Jones' style from WLLHE. It frequently said stuff like "with an overcard on the board, if there is a lot of action, you should discard your pair" and stuff like that. Ed was kind enough to share his wisdom & experience on the matter and has greatly improved my WR.

Freakin

[pittlaw]

CNoyes,
What the others have said makes sense. What is important is reading and then playing and then reading some more, and on and on.

SSHE is a great book. No doubt about it. What it may not be, in my view, is the best book for an absolute beginner. What it is, I think, is one of the best books for someone with some understanding of the game and a few thousand hands played. The book will teach you how to exploit your edge to maximize your expectation. That is what you want.
Without much experience, however, you might be better off picking up WLLHE and reading it a few times. Then playing and reading, and so on, untill you have at least several thousand hands of poker under your belt. Granted, the advice in WLLHE will make you a bit weak-tight. However, with a small BR, and little experience, that is not so bad untill you get a good feel for the real money games. Anyone who knows how to click the fold button can beat play money, but that's not always the case (but usually is) with micro limits.

After you've played for a while using the WLLHE system, reread SSHE a couple of times, concentrating on the post flop parts. Once you can reccognize when you have an edge, this will teach you to protect your hand and exploit that edge. This will make you more profitable. I'm not sure that you can't do this by reading SSHE, but if I were starting out again, that is the root I would take.
Good luck

[BSXX]

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Folding KK just because an Ace comes on the flop when it was 4 bets with 6 callers preflop just doesn't make sense.

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Where does he say this in his book?

Nevertheless, with 6 callers I think it makes perfect sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

6x4=24

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K, i was throwing it out there as an example. call it 5 player in the pot total, for 20 bets. I shouldn't have posted anything that wasn't thought out when I'm surrounded by a forum of people who look for reasons to tear down their fellow man (or at least correct whatever he says). Thats what I love about you all. No, really; i'm not being sarcastic.

Freakin

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Freakin, I completely agree with you about the bean counters on this forum, looking to rip the other guys comments and show how smart they are. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM! For starters, I am not that smart.

Further, I am not the kind to split hairs over pot odds, implied odds, etc. I was just sincerely looking for where Jones advocated folding in the situation you described. I thought you were referring to a specific situation and I couldn't find it in the book. That's all. Not looking for trouble.

I understand the argument the guys are making about pot odds, but it goes deeper than that and one would be well advised to consider the style of play of his opponents and not try to reduce any play down to a calculation of pot odds. Anyhow, now that I have thought about it, considering the style of game Jones covers in his book (i.e. very loose), if I had some extra chips laying around, I would probably call too, but it would involve a little more analysis than 6 x 4 = 24.

If 6 x 4 = 24 means "I still can't fold" and it makes you happy, then go for it. I just don't want to make the guy with the best hand happy by giving him more of my money because the odds require me to do so.

I am going to purchase Miller's book as well. I have heard from many people who were big proponents of Jones' book say that Miller's book is simply better in certain areas. I am not disputing that at all and will order it from Amazon shortly.

I do not consider myself a gatekeeper for WLLHE or HEFAP. I will accept and implement what works best for me regardless of who wrote it. WLLHE has been the single most helpful book I have ever read, but I do not necessarily follow all the starting hand recommendations or all the recommendations for post flop play.