musical genius

[M2d]

This morning, on Fox Sports Radio, Andrew Siciliano, Van Earl Wright and Crystal Fernandez were having a discussion about musical geniuses. Andrew said that Michael Jackson was a MG. Van Earl disagreed, but said that Quincy Jones was. Andrew agreed with Van Earl, but stuck to his guns about the gloved one. Crystal just sat there and looked pretty (tough to do on the radio), but threw in Elvis' name.

There was a short discussion, but they never really defined what they mean by "musical genius". to me, it means a muscian/performer who transcends the current trends in music through innovation, ability, or insight. as an example, John and Paul were MG's because they took elements of existing music forms and created a new, popular, lasting sound. Run DMC had some elements of this because they were the first rappers who were able to utilize other music genres in a form that was acceptible to the mainstream listener.

Pure ability, I think, is not a criteria. for this reason, I'd say that Shania Twain is more of a MG that Celine Dion (not that either qualifies) because Shania led the country crossover to pop, while Celine just does the same thing as others before her (admittedly, pretty well, but she just aint my cup of tea).

I'll throw out prince to start, and see what others here think.

[astroglide]

country was well on its way to the pop crossover with artists before shania. she just gave the movement tits.

[M2d]

I didn't say that I thought Shania was a MG. just that she reflected more MG qualities that Celine.

[ThaSaltCracka]

a brief list:
Johnny Cash
Charlie Parker
Bob Dylan
Andre 3000
Kurt Cobain

I think all of this musicians "transcended" their genres and made music better. I was trying to think of one for R&B(MJ doesn't cut it for me, all he did was make dance music listenable, hardly anything noteworthy /images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

[astroglide]

you can thank johnny cash for getting bob dylan onto the map too

[ThaSaltCracka]

cool, Johnny was the man. I am just glad I got into his music before he died. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[GuyOnTilt]

The definition of musical talent in our society today is simply what is most entertaining and fun to listen and look at. Difficulty and innovation are no longer valued in music and it seems like it's been that way for decades (I haven't been alive that long, but from what was "popular" in the 60's and since it seems that way). So yeah, anyway, that pisses me off just because it often means the most talented musicians alive today aren't showcased as much as they should be. So some names that don't get enough respect: Tom Morello is amazing to behold on electric guitar. All the LTE guys are INCREDIBLE at their respective instruments. Morgan Rose is freaking incredible on drums. Like, absolutely amazing to watch and listen to. A guy named Sean Hall is one of the best acoustic guitar players I've ever seen or heard. Eric Whitacre doesn't get nearly enough attention for the amazing orchestration he does. He has just an incredible musical mind and is a great guy to work with to boot.

GoT

[astroglide]

i think you're a bad judge if technical difficulty has anything to do with the scale. sometimes great music happens to be difficult, but it is not a requirement and is often a negative distraction. look at the garbage yngwie malmsteen pumped out. who would ever call his music great?

[Topflight]

John Williams

[GuyOnTilt]

i think you're a bad judge if technical difficulty has anything to do with the scale.

Which of the guys I mentioned makes you say this?

sometimes great music happens to be difficult, but it is not a requirement and is often a negative distraction.

Totally agree.

GoT

[ThaSaltCracka]

yeah I agree. I have spoken to a few musicians about Tom Morello, and they all say, what he does with the guitar isn't that hard to do, its the way he combines those sounds to make something so unique which is amazing.

I think a vote could def go for Dave Grohl, atleast for current artists, as being a MG.

[NotMitch]

Brian Wilson

[GuyOnTilt]

John Williams

Williams and Horner have put out THEE best scores in the last two decades.

GoT

[ThaSaltCracka]

good one, aside from him being slightly nuts, he did make some awesome music.

[astroglide]

either your post was massively edited or i massively misread it

[tolbiny]

I would have expected to see names like Eric Clapton, and Pink Floyd as an entire group up here by now.

[turnipmonster]

"genius" is overused, but Quincy Jones was by all accounts a prodigy who was playing trumpet and arranging for Lionel Hampton's band by the time he was 18 (aside clifford brown, another trumpet prodigy). He's arranged for everyone across all different musical styles and is clearly a master musician who has an uncommonly broad range of work.

I don't think that there are set qualities that you can use to define a musical genius. I love the jackson 5 and think michael was a great singer (I don't think he is anymore), but if you called him a genius then you've gotta call the other 100 million kids that play/sing well a genius.

pretty personal, I think, but for what it's work people I consider musical geniuses are:
Bach, Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Louis Armstrong and Keith Jarrett. certainly there are a lot more, but these people exemplify what the term means to me.

The common thread for me seems to be that all these guys are composers at some level. Someone like Glenn Gould I think is a genius of the piano, but as much as I love him for some reason I think of him as a genius interpreter. Same with Frank Sinatra, and I love Sinatra. Also I have a hard time classifying anyone still mid career (excepting keith jarett) as a genius. not sure why.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Difficulty and innovation are no longer valued in music and it seems like it's been that way for decades

[/ QUOTE ]

you should have said "pop music". innovation is very much valued in many modern styles of music, like jazz. I would also argue that innovation has never been valued in pop music.

--turnipmonster

[tolbiny]

I think that Paul Simon at least deserves a nomination....
so Paul Simon.

[astroglide]

paul simon is underrated as a technical guitarist

[turnipmonster]

really? I never would have thought. you know who is an absolute burning guitarist? glen cambell.

everyone knows this, but george benson (who mostly sings r&b now) is probably the greatest living bebop guitarist.

--turnipmonster

[oljumpstart]

It would be a betrayal of my youth to not mention Trey Anastasio.

[astroglide]

i can't tell where you're going with the "i never would have thought" line. but glen campbell has a lot of fingerpicking respect, as does jerry reed etc. chet atkins is beyond really mentioning in country circles. but people do seem to overlook paul simon BIG TIME when it comes to acoustic respect. a great example, i think, of some very complex work which wasn't done for complexity's sake (only the voices and songwriting are noticed). johnny marr only gets credit from smiths fans who happen to be guitarists too.

[turnipmonster]

nothing implied, I just didn't know. any recommended songs to check out? I like his stuff in general.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
but glen campbell has a lot of fingerpicking respect,

[/ QUOTE ]

thing is, he's a burning flatpicker as well. great sound/feel.

[M2d]

Tommy Angelo? his "I'm Running Bad" is groundbreaking.

[astroglide]

"anji" is a straight guitar s&g song, no vocals. i really love the arrangement in "so long, frank lloyd wright". he does tons of nonstandard tuning/capo work. "hearts and bones" is probably the most insane of his solo work (not a huge fan of his solo stuff in general because i like art's vocals so much). if you play try nailing the intro to the boxer SPOT ON sometime, it's a mini-bender in itself.

[ThaSaltCracka]

dude, if you guys are talking guitar playing, how about Hendrix? He certainly as a MG.

[astroglide]

we went off on a technical tangent. technically, jimi hendrix doesn't do it for me. great songs though.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I just love the guitar solos man, but his voice was perfet for rock stardom.

[turnipmonster]

to me hendrix is one of the best. his rhythm is always completely relaxed and amazing. nothing he played ever sounded forced at all, which is a hell of a quality to have in a musician. but he got past all that even.

--turnipmonster

[ThaSaltCracka]

I am surprised you didn't say T. Monk. He played one crazy piano. Him and Parker combined provided one hell of an enjoyable ride.

[astroglide]

yeah i agree on relaxed and smooth. what i was saying about the technical bits is that it's not too tough to play his stuff start to finish. the soul of it is intangible though.

[wacki]

My vote is for Eddie Van Halen. When guitar world talks about him they say its easier to list what he didn't do for music than what he did do.

[astroglide]

i'm honestly challenged to think of any examples of his influence in music that is being produced today. his style and tapping were HIGHLY emulated in the 80s/90s by rocky/glammy bands but that stuff really isn't made anymore. i think he had a huge sphere of influence but on a very localized period of time. technical toughie though, people could learn scores of hedrix songs before they could finish "hot for teacher" but jimi's influence is still pervasive. for a lot of people it's some of their only knowledge of that genre.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I am going to agree, plus he never really transcended the genre, he just added to it. I dunno, I am hard pressed to consider any artist that essentially made pop music a music genius.

[turnipmonster]

don't get me started man /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I can't believe I left monk off the list.

--turnipmonster

[ThaSaltCracka]

The only reason I know all these artists, was because I took a writing 101 class in college which was focused specifically on the 1920's in America and Jazz music in America. We read a bunch of [censored] from people like Fitzgerald, Harlem Renaissance writers, Toni Morrison, and of course several docs on Jazz. It totally blew me away, and made me like Jazz music, specifically Jazz from the late 40's through the early 60's.

[Zeno]

Schubert, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach.

Everyone has been talking about music innovators.

Genius is a whole different category. And very Rare. IMO.

-Zeno

[MelchyBeau]

Everybody keeps on mentioning guitarists, but they never mention Slowhand.

A small portion of my MG guitarist list
Slowhand (Eric Clapton for those of you not in the know)
Jerry Reed
Chet Atkins
Mark Knopfler
SRV
Tommy Emmanuel

I am a bassist myself so I have a few bassists I'd like to throw in the mix
Jaco Pastorious
Flea
Victor Wooten
Les Claypool

Melch

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Schubert, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach.

[/ QUOTE ] These guys should not be held up on such a high pedestal. They essentially made pop music for their time. If they had been born 300 years later then they could have very easily of been anyone that has been named already in this thread. They made music, plain and simple. I remember when Jazz first came out, all the critics said it wasn't real music, and it was crap because it didn't sound like Classical music. What a bunch of bull. Music is music no matter how you slice it, and in every genre there are certain artist that make better music then their counterparts.

You can put those guys as being the best Classical musicians of all time, but I see no reason why they should be considered more highly than any of other great musicians in other genres.

[mmbt0ne]

This seems to have developed into a Jazzfest, and all the good ones have been covered. Also, any classical composer still famous worldwide this long after death is obviously a shoe-in. I'll try to throw in something different.

Maynard James Keenan
Robert Smith (Ok, more inovator than genius, but still)

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think the reason it may be a Jazz fest is because basically every genre listened to in America was basically born out of Jazz music. People forget that Jazz was easily the most popular music in America for about 25 years.

[Zeno]

Some good points. I would like to mention that genius is overused. All the composers I mentioned, I think, showed exceptional skills and stunning abilities at a very early age. Truly exceptional individuals in terms of musical acumen.

The compositions and contributions made by them were also ground breaking in many forms. Their influence is still important today. And in almost all musical forms.

Perhaps Dylan is a musical genius, perhaps also Louis Armstrong, Doc Watson, Roy Clark, and maybe even Michael Jackson and many others, some perhaps completely unknown, but to toss about genius so easily is, in my opinion, to dilute the meaning of the word.

-Zeno

[ThaSaltCracka]

You are right Zeno, and I just wanted to say, that while I don't particulary like classical music, I still think those people you listed were very gifted.

[astroglide]

reed/atkins/knopfler/srv can play circles around clapton and i don't think he's a soulful writer or player. best stuff was cream and blind faith and he was part of a composite there. as a bassist flea has never impressed me. in terms of musical genius i would put geddy lee way, way, way ahead of him.

[astroglide]

n.e.r.d. is probably in the "not completely proven" stage of pop genius

[ThaSaltCracka]

I haven't heard the new cd, but the last one was awesome. I was really surprised by it, and the weird thing is, hardly any of it was played on the radio.

[wacki]

It's more than finger tapping, Eddie did alot of things with harmonics, made new chords famous/popular, suspended cords, the floyd rose, etc. And all of those are just in the album 1984.

I agree about his style though, it has gone with the wind. But alot of music since then has emulated his "Brown Sound".

[astroglide]

i was referring more to williams' track work for other artists. britney spears, nsync, justin timberlake, mystikal, etc. seems like a "willie nelson" in that he can write amazing stuff but falls flat by comparison in the market with his own work.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I dunno man, the stuff they do by themselves seems more original. Like they are actually trying to make music when its there "band", but when they do it for other people it seems like they are just trying to make hits.

[tripdad]

Roger Waters

cheers!

[dr. klopek]

I like to think that true musical genius is undeniable, that even the most hardened, pigeonholed music lover could understand and feel true genius. Sadly, this is not the case. I didn't read the whole thread yet, but there are a few things that caught my eye.

Tom Morello is an excellent guitar player. He uses a lot of different equipment/setups to get his sound and is quite technically capable on the guitar. Musical Genius? Nope. Rage Against the Machine is genius, all of them together. They don't exist without each other and they suck by themselves (audioslave).

Jimi Hendrix is true musical genius. Composition, lyricism, guitar playing. This guy blows people away to this day, I can't listen to him without cursing my bad fortune that I was born so late.

The Grammy awards do not mean a goddamn thing. Have you ever seen someone win an award in the broadcast that was less than platinum selling? How many of the award-winners have you seen before? The grammys are not for who's best, they are for who sells the most. Same thing with all the other award shows.

Since I doubt he's been mentioned, I'll throw out Rashaan Roland Kirk. This guy was a big fan of playing two saxes at once, quite well. I also have to give it up to They Might Be Giants for being the 80's beatles, and consistently progressing. Michael Jackson is nothing without Quincy Jones, and very little with. I would bring Rappers into the discussion, but that is more lyrical genius and has less to do with music. There are so many jazz musicians and classical composers that it's not worth mentioning.

There should be a set definition for the term "musical genius" if we are to continue.

[ThaSaltCracka]

the only rapper that comes to mind is Andre 3000. Based upon his disc, The Love Below, and his lyrical prowess, that seals the deal for me.

[astroglide]

i think one would have to be crazy to deny dr. dre's genius.

[Benal]

My vote goes for the main writers on Appetite For Destruction. Slash?

Best. Album. Ever.

[ThaSaltCracka]

good call with Dre, his genius is def on the production side, especially the beats. I heard an interview with Snoop, and he was talking about the Chronic album and when they were working on it. There was a part where Dre had Snoop say something in a really specific way and Snoop was like "wtf, I dunno that sounds wack", he did it how Dre told him to and it came out tight. He has an ear for what sounds good.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
John Williams

[/ QUOTE ]

Without the Williams score, there is no Star Wars franchise. Nobody would have cared that Episode 1 was coming out. Hell, episodes 5 and 6 may never have been made. Recently, I think the music is carrying the movies. Episode 1 was horrible, but Duel of the Fates was a great track. Episode 2 could have been great without the love scenes, but in reality kinda sucked as a whole. But the scene on Tattooine where Anakin goes off to "find his mother" where they transition from the Skywalker theme to Duel of the Fates is great. The last musical set in the movie where they blend nearly every theme, including the terrific Imperial March, is great.

I think people greatly underestimate the impact that music has on motion pictures, and well, on life. I'd rather be blind than deaf, though neither really strikes my fancy. Looks can be deceiving, but I've rarely been fooled by a noise. If Shore's score weren't so good, the Lord of the Rings movies would have been far less popular.

Dragon (that Bruce Lee thing) is an example of a mediocre movie that was made a lot better by a fantastic score. They still use a ton of the tracks for newer trailers.

~D

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems to have developed into a Jazzfest, and all the good ones have been covered. Also, any classical composer still famous worldwide this long after death is obviously a shoe-in. I'll try to throw in something different.

Maynard James Keenan
Robert Smith (Ok, more inovator than genius, but still)

[/ QUOTE ]

Maynard is a gifted lyricist and very good performer, but the genius in Tool is Danny Carey, the drummer. He is flat-out nasty.

[Duke]

The GZA, do you see why?

~D

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
You are right Zeno, and I just wanted to say, that while I don't particulary like classical music, I still think those people you listed were very gifted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, genius pure and simple, certainly in the cases of Mozart and Beethoven. You could try to say that Mozart was simply a prodigy, but he was one of the giants of the classical period and indeed helped to shape the very form of the music of that time. His ability, including such things as composing highly complex pieces virtually finished in his head, is almost unheard of.

Beethoven's work drove the transition from the Classical to the Romantic period. He wrote pieces of such scale and innovation as his 9th Symphony when he was deaf.

There's obviously a great deal more to be said in the support of Mozart's and Beethoven's genius, and that is why there are many biographies written about each of them.

These two composers, though not alone in the title, are virtually the definition of musical genius.

[craig r]

I can see why somebody would mention Kurt Cobain, but I am suprised that being from Washington you left off Sonic Youth. Sonic Youth, as well as Fugazi, might be the most influential bands to come out of the 80's and 90's. And even if one doesn't agree with their politics, what both bands did musically is amazing.

craig

[Reef]

I hope to baby Jesus that someone included Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach to name a few..

[astroglide]

i think sonic youth's influence is much further reaching than fugazi's but they owe a lot more upstream to people like the velvet underground. who else do you consider a direct descendant of fugazi besides atdi/mars volta/sparta? as far as ian mackaye's bands i think minor threat did more the fugazi in terms of INFLUENCE.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I don't know if this means anything, but nearly every rock band out now says Nirvana was the biggest influence upon them. To bad none of them can compare.

[craig r]

i guess that is true about fugazi. i was also thinking more along the lines of indy/punk/emo bands. not as much about bands that are "mainstream (though it is hard to tell the difference now with all the commericalism around punk and "indy."). I guess when I think of the most influential bands for those scenes, I think Fugazi, Rites of Spring, and Nation of Ulysses. One major influence that Fugazi has had is the "do it yourself" attitude.

[astroglide]

yeah the DIY thing you could stretch from fugazi/dischord to offspring/epitaph. the dc guys influencing each other seems to go without mentioning though.

[craig r]

I guess that is true, because a lot of these people are my age, and I was in 7th grade when Nirvana came out. But, in stuff that I read about Kurt Cobain, he was highly influenced by the punk/emo scene of Olympia/Seattle..particularly Sonic Youth. Which they were highly influenced by the scene in D.C. (which is where Fugazi is from).

craig

p.s. Even more "proof" of the influence of the washington scene on Kurt Cobain: Smells Like Teen Spirit was titled because of Kathleen Hannah's (formerly of Bikini Kill) writing on Kurt's wall. It said, "Kurt smells like teen spirit." /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

Yeah, I think I remember hearing that. Seattle use to have an amazing underground scene, and I think Mudhoney was one of the bands that Kurt also really liked. Sonic Youth may have been influential, but compared to Nirvana, I mean damn, not even close.

[craig r]

I forgot to ask in a previous post. Why Minor Threat over Fugazi? It can't just be because of this new punk crap (i.e. good charlotte)..these guys don't get it at all.

craig

[astroglide]

i'm sure if you asked some of the other punk crap like green day they'd surely be aware of and owe props to minor threat. bands like rage against the machine would credit them as a huge influence too, it spreads a pretty wide gamut.

[Danenania]

I don't think Clapton has been mentioned.

[Legend27]

Hans Zimmer.

[Legend27]

"I think people greatly underestimate the impact that music has on motion pictures, and well, on life."

I totally agree with that.

[nothumb]

Well, having read this whole thread, I am very disappointed to see that nobody bothered to second the Prince nomination. He is a true pop genius and a great performer and guitarist as well. One of the greats to be sure.

Bach was always the composer who blew me away most in terms of genius. Trouble is that the guys who followed in his footsteps were able to be much more tonally ambitious because of him - but he didn't really push it as far because of the context and restrictions on him at the time. So now, Mozart and Beethoven and a slew of others sound fresher and more adventurous, even to me. But until you understand what it means to improvise a 4-part fugue based on a modulating theme, you really can't step to my son J.S. Bach.

I'd throw a vote out there for Tom Waits. People have really struggled to expand on the folk/songwriting idiom and to broaden it sonically while still retaining a core of great composition. Waits does this brilliantly. Of course, I'm a Waits junkie right now, so keep that in mind.

I'm not that impressed with the bassists brought up so far. Flea is good put not groundbreaking. Not to say I don't love his playing. Wooten is technically mind-boggling but lacks a true spark. Jaco was great, and Claypool's a lot of fun. I'd be remiss not to mention James Jameson - listen to the bass line on "What's Going On," and then realize that he played it so coke-addled and drunk that he couldn't stand up. Most of it with one finger. Also, Will Lee and Geddy Lee are great electric players, my favorite upright players would be Mingus and Ron Carter.

Genius to me in jazz is Miles, Monk, Blakey, Mingus, Ellington, Armstrong, and most of all Coltrane. When he recorded "Countdown" he was soloing at 220 BPM and changing keys every other measure. He pushed the envelope so far but still retained that core of musicality - that's what genius is to me.

Johnny Cash is my favorite singer ever, I don't know if you'd call what he did genius, but it was irresistible. To me he brings up the question of, do you really need genius? Or is genius always the most approachable thing? I think it's not. I think he was just a great person, a populist.

I could go on forever, but I won't.

NT

[Legend27]

Prince is horrible.

[dsm]

[ QUOTE ]
look at the garbage yngwie malmsteen pumped out. who would ever call his music great?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like the type of critique Van Gogh was famous for receiving before his death.

Who would call Malmseen's music great? I guess all his fans.

-dsm

[nothumb]

You are wrong. For so many reasons.

NT

[wacki]

I agree with NoThumb. Prince is much more talented than people think. I've been told he is a great song writer and has written many songs for many other artists.

To bad the only song I like of his is 1999.

[astroglide]

prince has more or less pulled a david bowie. nobody nominated him either.

[plaster8]

Lou Reed, anyone?

His later stuff isn't great, but the Velvet Undergound was pretty influential. You know what they say about the first VU album: Only about a thousand people bought it, but every one of them went out and started their own band.

[whiskeytown]

he had to back off considerably...

he used to be a lot more technical, but wrist injuries after the early 70's got him backing down a ton - the Concert in Central Park in '81? - that was originally going to be a duo with no band, but they nixed that in part to the fact he couldn't do a 3 hr. show anymore.

sometimes he needs cortizone shots to play - these days, he usually strums a hi-strung guitar (basically, a guitar strung like the 2nd set of strings on a 12 string) - but then, with his more current genres of music and the musicians he has playing with him, like Vincent Nuigui, his guitar playing is quite frankly, unnecessary.

RB

[whiskeytown]

I've read some of these posts...ignored others...

there's a problem - there are so many ways to rate talent -

1. - Technical proficency - these guys are the virtoso's of the world music - some of them, like Segovia or Sharon Isben (to quote guitar players) are true virtusos, and what they do, probably not one in a thousand musicians could do - Others (like shred metal with it's 128th notes) are also complex, but that music is such an unlistenable piece of [censored], that even though it's fast, it's not worth even calling music.

2. - creativity - Beatles are big in this category - what they did wasn't difficult per se, but it was so out of this world that it basically changed rock and roll forever - (the 2 guitars/bass/drums standard for rock bands came from here)- but again...all the creativity in the world doesn't count for [censored] if the songs sound like dogshit - (best example i can put here - bad prog. jazz bands which I can barely listen to)

3. - then you have lyrics, which I think should count. - Take a band like the Cranberries...not a bad singer, not a bad band...but those lyrics could curdle milk - (you must have nothing more with your to do - there's a war in Russia and Sarjevo too) - - Christ -

But in the end, a musical genius who is inaccessable to the masses is just plain [censored] useless - you have to be accessable and enjoy listening to it - otherwise, all the creativity in the world is for [censored]...

Let's see - In technical terms

Lindsey Buckingham - (fingerpicking virtuso - a totally unique style of sounding/playing) -
Jimi H., obviously -

Creativity -

Flaming Lips are constantly breaking the mold and writing some great stuff
The Verve was incredible - Nick McCabe was a genius on guitar and the whole band was great
Radiohead - took it a bit too far, IMHO, but what the hell

Lyrics -

bob dylan/Paul Simon/Bill Mallonee - great songwriters -
Townes Van Zandt - the greatest [censored] songwriter in the world, period. - not a technical player by any means...easy songs to play, but the words were absolutely [censored] genius -

OVERALL -

The Police - three incredibly proficent players with some incredible [censored] creativity and lyrics - that's why I don't like sting - his current stuff is so far down from where they were
The Funk Brothers (as portrayed in Standing in the Shadows of Motown) - incredible creative band that did wonders for R&B
Nirvana - sorry...know you metalheads hate it, but there's a reason Nirvana replaced Poison and Motley Crue - it's cause those two bands sucked and Nirvana spoke to virtually everyone who ever felt dispossed - Kurt was quite simply an incredible [censored] songwriter, period.

RB

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this means anything, but nearly every rock band out now says Nirvana was the biggest influence upon them. To bad none of them can compare.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many of them say that just because they think it gives them some 'cred'?

I remember noticing the same thing with Marley around the late 80s - around the time pop/rock stars were going to save the world. Everybody and his grandma claims to have been influenced by Bob Marley back then.

Oh by the way, Bob Marley.

[tripdad]

Robert Johnson.
Elvis Costello.

cheers!

[astroglide]

i think most critics consider john cale to be the actual heart of velvet underground

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Townes Van Zandt - the greatest [censored] songwriter in the world, period

[/ QUOTE ]


Where would you rate Steve Goodman or John Prine?

-Zeno

[Uston]

Slowhand (Eric Clapton for those of you not in the know)
Jerry Reed
Chet Atkins
Mark Knopfler
SRV
Tommy Emmanuel

Eric Clapton? The guy's been playing the same stuff for the last thirty years. Other than that, your list is great.

Charlie Christian should top just about any list. Any time a guy dies at 23 and professional guitar players look at his body of work with awe 50 years later, he's probably a musical genius.

[astroglide]

django reinhardt may lead the "dead revelry" pack

[BullChip]

is a music genius, period.

In every aspect of the term.

CHI-KA CHI-KA!!!

[EliteNinja]

Mason Williams.

Classical Gas.

[astroglide]

hey i have an old mp3 of me playing that song fast. i'll upload it now here ya go guitarists www.badbeat.com/tmp/classicalgas.mp3 (http://www.badbeat.com/tmp/classicalgas.mp3)

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Prince is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, Mr. Knows Nothing About Music.

Prince plays, well, all of the instruments at an expert level. You might not like his music, as I don't, but to say he's horrible as a musician is pure ignorance.

~D

[Duke]

Here's a guy who changed music: Liberace.

Without him, there is no Billy Joel, Elton John, and hell not even an Axel Rose playing a piano in November rain. The guy made the piano a mainstream instrument.

All his shortcomings aside, he did a lot for music, especially popular music.

~D

[Chah Ngo]

Frank Zappa

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Frank Zappa

[/ QUOTE ]

Another great call. I've been recently introduced to this guy's music, and he's ridiculous. Excellent choice.

~D

[ilya]

how about...oh, I dunno...Beethoven? Bach? Mozart? Wagner?

[Chah Ngo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Frank Zappa

[/ QUOTE ]

Another great call. I've been recently introduced to this guy's music, and he's ridiculous. Excellent choice.

~D

[/ QUOTE ]
TY sir.
Tom Waits is pretty good too.

[Enon]

A few names nobody has mentioned and some general info courtesy of Allmusic:

John Fahey

One of acoustic music's true innovators and eccentrics, John Fahey was a crucial figure in expanding the boundaries of the acoustic guitar over the last few decades. His music was so eclectic that it's arguable whether he should be defined as a "folk" artist. In a career that saw him issue several dozen albums, he drew from blues, Native American music, Indian ragas, experimental dissonance, and pop.

Brian Eno

Ambient pioneer, glam-rocker, hit producer, multi-media artist, technological innovator, worldbeat proponent and self-described non-musician — over the course of his long, prolific and immensely influential career, Brian Eno was all of these things and much, much more. Determining his creative pathways with the aid of a deck of instructional, tarot-like cards called Oblique Strategies, Eno championed theory over practice, serendipity over forethought, and texture over craft; in the process, he forever altered the ways in which music is approached, composed, performed and perceived, and everything from punk to techno to new age bears his unmistakable influence.

Serge Gainsbourg

Serge Gainsbourg was the dirty old man of popular music; a French singer/songwriter and provocateur notorious for his voracious appetite for alcohol, cigarettes, and women, his scandalous, taboo-shattering output made him a legend in Europe but only a cult figure in America, where his lone hit "Je T'Aime...Moi Non Plus" stalled on the pop charts — fittingly enough — at number 69.

And finally, one album of genius that just came out last year and a short review from pitchforkmedia.com:

The Books - Lemon of Pink

The Lemon of Pink is the cerebral world of thought, feeling, and idea made sound. Arbitrary, disconnected soundbytes rattle around beneath swells of fiddle, banjo, and other antique strings like half-remembered moments of clarity. The otherworldly samples and vocal snippets could easily be relegated to the status of novelty, or worse, distraction, in less perfectly arranged music, but here the spoken interludes and melodies work in beautiful concert: otherwise distant, sepia-toned nostalgia is lent emotional resonance by eggshell-fragile plucking and triumphant crescendos, and with the album's very first utterance, "The lemon. Of pink," amid its first hesitant tunings, hits like a blast from the Reading Rainbow past, making it plain that this album is less reality than fairytale.

[Zeno]

There is a Zappa Biograhpy out that was just released. I saw it in the book store the other day. Probably worth getting.

Frank Zappa wrote a book (with some help) called: The Real Frank Zappa Book, back in the late 1980's, (OK 1988, I just looked). It's a very interesting read, some parts are extremely funny and very informative. I recomend it if you are at all a Frank Zappa Fan.

And Zappa was close to being a musical genius.

-Zeno

[Chah Ngo]

I honestly envy all of you who have never listened to Zappa.
Oh to hear "Joe's Garage" for the first time . . .

edit - to Hell with that. I listened to it again. Crew Slut is as fresh as ever.

[astroglide]

http://members.tripod.com/~navanax/d-playboy_interview.html is a really awesome read

[Legend27]

It's not my fault Prince is horrible.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
John Fahey

One of acoustic music's true innovators and eccentrics, John Fahey was a crucial figure in expanding the boundaries of the acoustic guitar over the last few decades.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're into acoustic guitar, I think Leo Kottke is someone you need to hear. Folk artist, I guess, but a fantastic guitar player.

~D

[zephed56]

Holy christ, 7 [censored] pages of this [censored] and not a single mention of Led Zeppelin?
Forget they even wrote Stairway to Heaven, still some of the greatest [censored] to come out of rock 'n' roll.

[daveymck]

I've come to this thread late but want to comment on the Nirvana thing.

I think Kurt Cobain is totally overated had he not blown his head off I dont think Nirvana would be seen is as much of the light they are seen as now. Yes when they came out they were different to the GNR/Motley Crue Metallica/Megadeth seperate type scenes that were going on but they were the popular face of the Seattle movement that went on at that time.

Yes nevermind is a good album (good but would not make anywhere near mt top 10 all time) but bleach and in utero suck (in my opinion, Cobain was a poor guitarist and a poor lyracist (sic probably) I dont think the band would have stood the test of time, Husker DU also did the same type of stuff better in my opinion.

I belive the influence he had on the bands now is more down to the impact he and his death had on people than the music itself and the reverance these kids making music now have for him based on reputation that the legacy of the music itself.

[Bubbagump]

[ QUOTE ]
I was trying to think of one for R&B(MJ doesn't cut it for me, all he did was make dance music listenable, hardly anything noteworthy ).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think either Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder would fit the Bill handily in the R&B category.

Bubbagump

[Bubbagump]

[ QUOTE ]
technically, jimi hendrix doesn't do it for me. great songs though.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no in between when it comes to Hendrix. People either love him or hate him. But he definately deserves MG status.

If you look at the the other music that was out there during the 50's and 60's, factor in who Jimmy's musical influences were, he did't just push the Rock music envelope, he moved it to a whole new [censored] zip code!

Bubbagump

[KJS]

Mingus, Monk, Trane without a doubt. IMO, jazz has more MGs than any other genre, so I could add a bunch more. These three stand out though.

I think Bob Dylan is a literary genius and since he's a singer-songwriter, I'd add him.

If you can include whole bands I'd say The Clash, for moving their genre forward, and melding non-pop music with intelligent, socially conscious lyrics. Zeppelin for updating the blues and doing it with nearly virtuosic command of their instruments. And believe it or not, Slayer, for combining technique, speed and aggression in a way that was way ahead of their time. The fact that they have been copied by so many for over 2 decades but few have come at all close to reproducing the feeling they induce, is evidence of their genius, IMO. Honorable mentions to Fugazi and Sonic Youth, who others mentioned. Also a nod to local Seattle group The Sun City Girls, who are a must see to believe group of undeniable genius.

There are many more, but those are my top picks.

KJS

[B Dids]

A few points.

Noting Dr. Dre as a genius is hard, because he farms out a lot of his work and takes credit for stuff that isn't his.

I'd add Prince Paul to any list of geniuses. Other than that, it's not a lable that I'd hand out very willingly. (for instance, I'm not sure if I'd give it to Andre 3000).

Whoever said Prince sucks is a horrible person and should give up at life.

[Macdaddy Warsaw]

As an indie rock fan-boy, I think leaving off Doug Martsch as a guitarist and Pavement/Stephen Malkmus as a sound is a mistake.

Doug Martsch can lay down some sick jams. He's the lead of Built to Spill, check out I Would Hurt a Fly and their cover of Neil Young's Cortez the Killer (has anybody mentioned Neil Young?)

As for Pavement, well, if you're into indie rock, you know who they are. Fantastic. I won't tell you to check out a few songs because I can't think of favorites right now, all of their songs are fantastic (Ok, not ALL, they did make that stupid Hit the Plane Down).

Anyway, anybody agree?