Calling Stations in 5 Max

Hey all. I play quite a bit of 5 handed 1-2 at Paradise Poker. I like the speed and strategy and find that most players don't adjust well to shorthanded. I wish I had the BR to play higher (this is their lowest limit 5 max) but I don't. Anyway, I have lately been running into the same dilemma over and over and could use some other perspectives.


How do people adjust when there are 2 or 3 calling stations out of the 5? By calling station I mean they will hardly ever bet their own hand. Top pair, weak kicker--check/call, four flush--check/call, flopped boat--check/call, third pair--check/call.


I am a very aggressive player at this limit. I almost always raise when first in on button. This can mean any K9 or up, any A, pair of 7s or better, QJ, as well as the group 1 hands and some total crap. I will also bet the flop when checked to me nearly 100% of the time. I like to give people a chance to put me on a good hand and fold, keep control and get paid when I flop a big hand and people know I would bet anything. Keeps them guessing.


My problem comes when I flop 2nd pair, top pair, bad kicker or just overcards and get a caller or two on flop. I hate giving free cards to draws but also hate when I bet the flop, turn and sometimes river only to be shown top pair-5 kicker or middle pair and lose. I need little excuse to bet in a 5 max game but some people look for excuses not to, it seems. These folks really get under my skin. When they are hitting and I am missing it gets very expensive.


Here are a couple examples. I am not looking for specific advice on these as much as general comments on this predicament.


I have AhJc and raise one limper on button. Blinds call. Flop is 4s6c2s. Checked to me, I bet. Called in one place. Turn is a K. Checked to me, I bet. Called. river is a 4. Check, I check. Lose to 7s6h.


Anyone not bet the turn here? Caller could easily have just spades, inside straight, overcards, etc..? I want him to pay to draw but instead I feed him money when I have a draw myself.


Another: I have A9o and raise first in on button. Both blinds call. Flop is 3c8cQh. Checked to me, I bet, one caller. Turn is 6s. This time we both check. River is 2h, checked through. My A high good.


I hated playing this one like this but realize that after an afternoon of missing with my high cards I got gunshy. Hence this post.


How do others approach their high unpaired cards, 2nd pairs, top pair-OK kicker hands, when the bet after all checks and get some callers? Looking for thought processes here, more than strict guidelines.


Any and all comments appreciated.


KJS

You appear to be over-estimating the risk of giving free cards in short-handed situations--especially when there is a good chance you do not currently have the best hand. You are betting too much. Clever opponents will let you bet their hands for them, and calling stations will seldom fold when you bluff.

bottom line--- you just told the world how poor yourr [play really is!!!


SWIFTY

Before I discount this post as only inflammatory and therefore completely useless, I'll ask for some clarification. Who's play are you commenting on and why, specifically, do you say it is poor?


KJS

I need a little convincing of this. In shorthanded, there are many pots where no one has a pair on the flop. With position and a good no pair hand, a bet is in order, IMO. I have won many pots with nothing but position on the turn. I don't want to give this up so easily.


I do agree with your point about more observant players letting me bet for them. My problem is trying to balance this reality with weak-tight tendencies like "Oh, he called, he must have something good, I better check". Thinking like this makes the pots I win smaller, opens me up for bluffs at the river and makes me risk giving my opponents infinite odds to beat me.


If this was a full table I would surely just make sure I was very certain I had the best hand going into the showdown. But 5 max is very different and therefore I need to think about my strategy a bit more. Thanks for helping.


KJS

"In shorthanded, there are many pots where no one has a pair on the flop."


i think the problem here is in your definition of shorthanded. i think that 5 handed is right on the cusp. i used to jump in there and play like it's 3 handed and raise as much as you do (and get beat up by the calling stations just as much) and really i think there's a difference. ive found it a bit more worthwhile to actually tighten up and limp a little more and wait and see what the flop brings; although oppurtunities for isolating bad players who limp or are in the blinds should never be overlooked.


ive experienced the same problems as you are at paradise 1-2 5 handed, and after some minor success there, given up spending any serious time playing it. im confident that you are an even stronger player than i given the quality of your posts, but i think you should consider carefully tracking your progress on paradise 1-2 5 handed for at least 100-200 hours or more and then making a decision from those numbers as to whether it's really worth your time and energy. my guess is that, given the rake, and the amount of semi-decent players on there, youll find that it isnt.

Your statement that you "bet the flop when checked to me nearly 100% of the time" suggests that you are betting too predictably. Though it is usually correct to make this bet after having raised preflop, it is not correct to always bet. For example, when you have two or more callers who check a highly coordinated flop that leaves you with few or no clean outs, you should usually check behind them.


After betting the flop with overcards or a weak pair, it is necessary to consider the texture of the board and the number (and nature) of your opponents when deciding whether to bet the turn. I got the impression that you may be betting a bit too predictably here as well, and too frequently following it up with another big bet on the river with weak hands. When you decide to fire the second barrel with a mediocre hand (e.g., 2nd pair, AK no-pair) and get called, it will usually be correct to check the river without improvement. Conversely, when you decide to check the turn, it will often be necessary to call a possible bluff bet on the river. Against some relatively aggressive opponents, you can even occasionally check the turn and raise the river as a bluff.


In summary, I think you need to mix up your play more and worry less about "giving my opponents infinite odds to beat me" in short-handed play.


Regards,


Mike

I should probably clarify that my suggestion you "mix up your play more" does not mean I think you need to be more tricky, just less predictably aggressive. Against calling stations, you should continue to value-bet aggressively (when you are favored to have the best hand) but cut back on the semi-bluffs.


-Mike

the truth of the matter is that your play is totallylackluster. you need to raise preflop and follow up, however limping with a 32suited and a flop if 1098 anjd it is checked to you this is clearly throwingout money... play your cards straigh up against the week fishies and they will you pay off, you think my info. is good please tell me and i will help some more.

thanks,

SWIFTY

Thanks Mike. I have tried several different strategies but I think limping more and then crafting a plan post-flop would be an improvement. I have been going on the "why not raise pre-flop and get control right away" paradigm for a while now. It is nice to get checked to almost every flop I see but I can tell that I need to be more variable in what I do next. I think I have trouble seeing hands where I check the flop, then someone with bottom pair-bad kicker bets the turn into me when an obvious scare card hits. I always think "If I bet the flop and turn, they would have a really hard time continuing". Its all a balancing act I suppose. I am starting to see that predictable aggression is not the best strategy. The predictable part can be a big hole in this game.


I know that PP 1-2 is no good for many reasons. Problem is I am broke and unemployed right now so its the only game I can afford. I only ever played in cardrooms on my extra $ and there is none of that right now. All I have is the couple hundred bucks I grinded out in PP micro limit. So, there I play. Its that or not get the experience I want to get better. Still, I think I'll go back to the full tables for a bit while I think about my 5 handed game.


Thanks again.


KJS