Starting Sunday Nov. 13, the converter's going on vacation for a week.

[bisonbison]

What: From whenever I get to it on Sunday, November 13, to whenever I get to it on Sunday, November 20, the converter will be unable to process Hold'em hands.

When: For one week, sunday to sunday. THE CONVERTER WILL RETURN AT THE END OF THAT WEEK as buggy and destructive and helpful as always.

Where: The site will still be available. When you attempt to convert a hold'em hand, it will spit out a message that says, in effect: "the converter is on maternity leave this week. Please type your hands manually for discussion."

Who: I'll be doing it. In recognition of the fact that many people will complain, I will be disabling my ability to receive PMs, because I don't want to hear about it.

Why: The idea of a converter-free period originated from posts made by Sublime and Joe Tall, the gists of which were: the small stakes forum suffers from a perpetual struggle with bland uselessness, and the ability to mass-produce hand posts without context or reads is not helping.

Everyone agrees that the ability to convert hands automatically is useful, but it has contributed to a certain texture of shitty mechanical sameness that causes many a SS forum veteran's heart to despair. So:

1. this isn't being done to punish anyone, to make the converter seem blahblahblah or anything like that.
2. this isn't permanent.
3. whether or not it's going to happen is not up for debate.

If you have any questions, I will, in fact, be happy to answer them in this thread, as long as you understand the depths of my potential not caring.

[Ajax410]

Rather than complain about not using the converter, I actually just wanted to thank you for making it available in the first place. I don't know how much time you put into it, or how hard it is to maintain, but I think you do a great thing for the 2+2 community by keeping it there. If you choose to take it offline, that's your perogative, but I think, as users of the converter, we all need to recognize the effort that you put into it...so thank you.

Alex

[billyjex]

So we can have this for a week:

No reads. Please comment on all streets.

***** Hand History for Game 1168275089 *****
$2/$4 Hold'em - Friday, November 12, 00:02:46 EDT 2004
Table Card Room Table 2983 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: the_chark ( $52.5 )
Seat 2: esirish ( $109.5 )
Seat 4: knowcents ( $77 )
Seat 5: TrojanMan86 ( $97 )
Seat 6: mombyrd ( $52 )
Seat 7: mr_knish ( $121.5 )
Seat 8: TAAAAAAPIS ( $215.5 )
Seat 10: rfk_daddy ( $97 )
Seat 9: billyjex ( $98 )
Seat 3: JediPimp1284 ( $57 )
billyjex posts small blind [$1].
rfk_daddy posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to billyjex [ Jh Js ]
the_chark folds.
esirish folds.
JediPimp1284 folds.
knowcents folds.
TrojanMan86 folds.
mombyrd folds.
mr_knish folds.
TAAAAAAPIS raises [$4].
esirish: i try
billyjex raises [$5].
rfk_daddy folds.
TAAAAAAPIS calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, Qs, Ah ]
billyjex bets [$2].
TAAAAAAPIS calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
billyjex bets [$4].
TAAAAAAPIS folds.
billyjex does not show cards.
billyjex wins $22

[River2Pair]

my eyes hurt already.

[bisonbison]

If the converter is the only difference between the level of effort between the posts made here and the crap that gets posted in the zoo, I'd say that's pretty damning.

[Entity]

If we have posts like those, we'll just treat them the same way we treat posts that are asking what happened to the converter: we'll ignore them.

Sounds good, bison. Thanks for making the converter in the first place.

Rob

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
So we can have this for a week:

No reads. Please comment on all streets.


[/ QUOTE ]

and your lazy azz won't get any responses

[brian0729]

I know it has already been said, but bears repeating. The converter is a great tool for those of us that take are game serious. Thanks for your time and effort.

Brian

[ArchAngel71857]

[ QUOTE ]
So we can have this for a week:

No reads. Please comment on all streets.

***** Hand History for Game 1168275089 *****
$2/$4 Hold'em - Friday, November 12, 00:02:46 EDT 2004
Table Card Room Table 2983 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: the_chark ( $52.5 )
Seat 2: esirish ( $109.5 )
Seat 4: knowcents ( $77 )
Seat 5: TrojanMan86 ( $97 )
Seat 6: mombyrd ( $52 )
Seat 7: mr_knish ( $121.5 )
Seat 8: TAAAAAAPIS ( $215.5 )
Seat 10: rfk_daddy ( $97 )
Seat 9: billyjex ( $98 )
Seat 3: JediPimp1284 ( $57 )
billyjex posts small blind [$1].
rfk_daddy posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to billyjex [ Jh Js ]
the_chark folds.
esirish folds.
JediPimp1284 folds.
knowcents folds.
TrojanMan86 folds.
mombyrd folds.
mr_knish folds.
TAAAAAAPIS raises [$4].
esirish: i try
billyjex raises [$5].
rfk_daddy folds.
TAAAAAAPIS calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, Qs, Ah ]
billyjex bets [$2].
TAAAAAAPIS calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
billyjex bets [$4].
TAAAAAAPIS folds.
billyjex does not show cards.
billyjex wins $22

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Looks good, might want to have limp reraised.

Flop: When you can C/R this, you will be a better palyer.

Turn:Next time try flopping a river and stop wasting our time.

-AA

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Looks good, might want to have limp reraised.

Flop: When you can C/R this, you will be a better palyer.

Turn:Next time try flopping a river and stop wasting our time.

[/ QUOTE ]


Flopping rivers will add a whole new dimension to your game. Try it when you hold a suited pair.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
...the ability to mass-produce hand posts without context or reads is not helping.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can't we just send Josh to bed without his Red Bull.

[bisonbison]

Can't we just send Josh to bed without his Red Bull.

That bed's not going to pee itself.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Can't we just send Josh to bed without his Red Bull.

That bed's not going to pee itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured this thread was going to suck hard, but that exchange alone is worth the price of a week with no converter.

[scrub]

Someone ought to post a suggested anectodal format. Maybe Mat could sticky a consensus sample hand to the top of the forum for the week?

scrub

[Joe Tall]

In honor of the 'Convertor on hiatus' I'm going to make a few posts that should stay on the board for more 5 mins, I hope.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
That bed's not going to pee itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to make this my location but it's too damn long. If you can be this funny in five fewer characters I'd appreciate it.

What's this converter, anyway? I've just been formatting these things by hand to look like everyone else's...

NT

[billyjex]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Trix]

So...ehrm...whats the link to slavics ???

[joker122]

the irony is i totally support this idea of uncluttering the forum but i'm making a worthless post. enjoy!

[Bob T.]

I never use the converter. Look at my posts, if you can find any about a hand. Noone has ever complained about how I describe a hand, except when I have two 3 of clubs.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone ought to post a suggested anectodal format. Maybe Mat could sticky a consensus sample hand to the top of the forum for the week?

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheesh how about everyone just wakes up and uses their initiative? Too many have become too dependant on it, I would be happy to see no more converters used. Bison did a great job with it but the quality of some of this forum, and others, has gone down considerably.

[Tosh]

PS, Bison Sunday November 13th is in 2005.

[bisonbison]

Bison Sunday November 13th is in 2005.

Sigh.

[bisonbison]

but the quality of some of this forum, and others, has gone down considerably.

I think this is only slightly correlated with the converter. I'm biased, but I think it has much more to do with the exploding population of 2+2 than with any effect the converter may have wrought.

I'm tryig not to be defensive, but as I see it, the problem is not the converter per se, but the poker explosion, the lack of moderation here and the willingness of people to respond to hands without reads/context/any effort whatsoever.

[bdk3clash]

I understand why you're doing this, but I think it's silly. Anyway, if I have any hands from Party to post, I guess I'll be kicking it old school. (http://www.team-skilz.com/)

[Tosh]

The abuse of the converter is the major thing I was trying to outline.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand why you're doing this, but I think it's silly. Anyway, if I have any hands from Party to post, I guess I'll be kicking it old school. (http://www.team-skilz.com/)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ssssh. I can't believe you posted the link. I was considering cheating but now everyone can, I won't feel clever about it at all.

This is all just a clever trick to cut down the clutter for one week but then the next week the board will be filled with "I love bison" posts.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm tryig not to be defensive, but as I see it, the problem is not the converter per se, but the poker explosion, the lack of moderation here and the willingness of people to respond to hands without reads/context/any effort whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, is there really nothing we can do to get a sticky post outlining proper posting techniques and imploring people to use the search function?

[private joker]

I've never used the converter because all I play is B&M and type everything out from memory. I bet no one has noticed; it's not that hard to make it look purty.

[spamuell]

Argh, I forgot Party changed their HHs and Slavic's doesn't work anymore.

I also forgot that I still don't know how to get past the [censored] piece of [censored] censor on this site, wow that pisses me off. Can someone PM me if they know?

[helpmeout]

Just make the converter not work for AA hands.

The "Did I play this well" type hands with no reads or notes or questions are kind of annoying especially when someone posts 3-4 of them at once.

General discussion type threads dont seem to last long either because of the spam which is kind of dissappointing.

[maryfield48]

So for a week we'll be flooded with "Just played 100 hands, how are my stats?" instead.

--
Peter

[sthief09]

all it's going to do is make hand posts a pain in the ass to read /images/graemlins/mad.gif

oh well I'm open minded kinda

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
all it's going to do is make hand posts a pain in the ass to read /images/graemlins/mad.gif

oh well I'm open minded kinda

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if someone posts a hand in the messy format sites send it as and gets no responses, maybe they'll catch on.

[sthief09]

good call

[sfer]

http://www.team-skilz.com/

[sfer]

Does this mean I have to talk to people, like live, for a week?

[btspider]

post a topic in the micro forum as well so those guys don't get swamped with converter question topics.

[Fnord]

<Insert token post that the problem is the lack of moderation, not the hand converter>

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
In honor of the 'Convertor on hiatus' I'm going to make a few posts that should stay on the board for more 5 mins, I hope.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

nothing is going to change in the span of a week. everyone is going to read this thread and think about making a post without the converter, just like you did. i think a period of 2-4 weeks is more reasonable.

[asofel]

While the converter is down, perhaps this would be a good time to make any changes/upgrades/additions to it that would enhance its usage and effect on the forums? Perhaps a limiting factor on how many posts you can make in a period of time?

I say this from the standpoint of someone willing to spend the time coding, NOT as a call to blast bison with more feature requests than he already gets. Of course, this would be up to him sharing his code, but given the amount of knowledge I leech from the users here, it only feels right to try and help out in a way that I can.

Thoughts?

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]

Sheesh how about everyone just wakes up and uses their initiative? Too many have become too dependant on it, I would be happy to see no more converters used. Bison did a great job with it but the quality of some of this forum, and others, has gone down considerably.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're going to see a lot of raw HH posts if there isn't some guidance posted. If people were capable of providing good content without guidance, they'd be able to use the converter responsibly in the first place.

scrub

[klagett]

Thanks Bison.

I really hope that this will help the SS forum.

[B Dids]

You're really screwing up my blog you know. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I understand the end goal of this, but I think it's a passive agressive way to go about it. I doubt the # of posts will drop, people might just respond less, and that can be accomplished now by well, not responding.

I think if you want to improve the quality of this board, you don't need to play games like this. What needs to be done is to make an appeal to David, Matt and Mason to allow users to moderate the individual forums. Say Bison and Joe Tall moderate SS, and delete and lock the posts that lead to the clutter (and explain why they were deleted/locked). I know it's more work, but obviously some people here care enough to put that work in.

The other thing people might do, is use pokerhand.org and just link to the hands, which is cleaner than the raw HHs (but does things like sharing screen names and what not).

[MAxx]

i think the converter is wonderful, but the people who use it aren't always. kinda like the gun control argument that it is people the people who kill, not the guns. however you would also tend to think their would be less shootings with less gun availability. anyway i actually do have a thought here.

Idea: charge a fee for the convertor. the fee could go toward a moderator's compensation. if this has already been said, my badness.

[twankerr]

There needs to be POKER discussion, not hand discussion. Eliminating the convertor helps that termendously. Instead of making one post on having KK and an ace flops, why not start starting threads about playing pairs when overcards hit? I think you get the idea...

[Evan]

By George he's got it!!

(clever play on words, huh?)

[scrub]

Tool.

scrub

[Evan]

scrub is just mad because when he tried to jam a low against my obvious low board the other day in stud/8 I outlowed him. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

EDIT: By the way, I outlowed him with a 76, what a fish!!

[scrub]

Just wait--the hour of your smiting is nigh.

scrub

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Just wait--the hour of your smiting is nigh

[/ QUOTE ]

"Ooo, I went to Princeton, I can use fancy words."

Loser

[B Dids]

HUGS!!!

[scrub]

I'm starting to see why you have more posts than me.

I'm glad we're doing this in a thread about the forum being cluttered... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

scrub

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
There needs to be POKER discussion, not hand discussion. Eliminating the convertor helps that termendously. Instead of making one post on having KK and an ace flops, why not start starting threads about playing pairs when overcards hit? I think you get the idea...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I enjoyed the link to a 15/30 discussion the other day that had a lot of theory, some great posters (tommy a et al) and a pretty well argued debate over the right line on a play. I do think that specific hands are needed of course, but from what I've seen, there are a number of users with LPCE (large-post-count-envy). It would be great if someone like bison, who will often steer incorrectly posted...umm...posts...to the right forum, had the power to act on that instead of make another post.

If we could get out of the "post hand -> use to create a discussion on theory" and do the reverse, using hands where applicable to demonstrate concepts, I think it'd be more constructive and certainly helpful for those of us who don't know the right line.

Concepts and theory supported by hands >> a shitload of converted hands in my very humble opinion...

[bisonbison]

but I think it's a passive agressive way to go about it.

Guys, I admit that this is not a perfect or even a great fix for the larger problems that we're all aware of, but it's one that I'm willing to try for a week to see how it works.

There are certain intractable issues that simply can't be addressed without moderation, but for the snapshot of the posting population that exists right now, hopefully this will shake up the complacent laziness that's leading to a lot of dumb posts. That's all.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
There needs to be POKER discussion...

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought this was going to seagueway into how much of the content of this forum is non-poker banter between a clique of forum regulars.

[Altaslim]

I realize that by posting this I am opening myself to a good head thumping, but so be it.

I'm one of those people who contributes to cluttering the zoo with hand posts. I've been reading and trying to learn everything I could about poker since I started playing 6 months ago. I was happy to find this site because it has been a great resource for me to read and learn more about poker. I respect the players here and have tried to be humble in posting.

I've read many posts that ask general questions typical of a noob and I've found that more often than not the advice they are given runs something like, "We can't really help you unless you post some hands." So it would seem that the advice given often contributes to this problem of clutter and redundant posts. Many boards I've visited on the internet struggle with people not using the search tool. Some do a great job of moderating, others do not.

The point to this rant is that I think the small stakes forum will continue to be overrun by noobs due to the "poker explosion" that bison mentioned, and my hope is that those of you who have been around here for the beginning of time would either support us in our growth or accept the fact that the SSF will be a zoo full of ridiculous questions without context.

As for me I will continue reading and learning here, and I will try to post hands with reads and context manually. I appreciate those of you who work to make this place respectable.

[B Dids]

BUT WON'T YOU THINK OF THE BLOGS!!!

If every poster just asked themselves "has this question been asked before" and "what are the underlying themes I'm asking about".

As somebody else mentioned, the mentality should be shifted away from specific hands to general questions on play. For instance, the Bunky/Gonores hand isn't "what do I do in this hand with QQ on a double paired board" it's "playing an overpair on the river with a double paired board" or something like that. The more we can make posts generally applicable to other situations, the more benefit we'll find.

[B Dids]

The biggest advice I can offer. "Read more, post less". Now as you can see by the big number under the picture of my grandfather, I didn't follow my own advice, but a few nice dashes of reality made me realize that I was just posting too much.

Read the forums, read the archives. Looks for posts that deal with the questions you have. Odds are somebody will have addressed it before and done it with more though than your post might get (because as is obvious by the themes in this thread, people are tired of responding to random hand posts).

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was going to seagueway into how much of the content of this forum is non-poker banter between a clique of forum regulars.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incredibly true, and one of the reasons I stopped posting here for a while.

Then I started talking to one of the forum regulars and decided that the non-poker banter in here was more fun than the non-poker banter in OOT... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

To be honest, I think a lot of the better poker posters wouldn't be around to answer poker questions if it weren't for the clique aspect--just look at what happened to PLNL when the deluge of crappy players started (or mid/high limit, for that matter)... The clique posts are probably the only thing keeping some of the better posters in mid/high (where almost none of the posters who know what they're doing chime in on PP 15 posts anymore)--at least here people add some content, too. SS PLNL is a wasteland.

scrub

[Altaslim]

I agree with what you say. I think some kind of sticky with guidelines to posting could help a lot of noobs out.

[DMBFan23]

i agree with this general statement, but I think that needs to be balanced against the forum turning into an online version of a 2+2 book...a topic followed by some examples would obscure a lot of what makes this forum the bomb.

I like the fact that I can present one specific permutation of a general concept, and hear about the nuances of that specific situation: for instance, "KQs in CO flops a backdoor flush draw and a gutshot versus a TAG and a LAG" would be much more educational to me than "playing missed overcards", where I can go read SSH to learn the general concepts. I feel like there does need to be some degree of generalization involved in the hand discussions, such as the whole KK when an Ace flops/QQ when a K flops issue, but debating the specifics is what makes the forum unique to me.

the trick then is finding posts where these subtle nuances are emphasized, as opposed to routine plays straight from <insert poker book or old well respected 2+2 post here>. I agree that this isn't trivial.

P.S. Bison, you've given enough to these forums that if people don't like you giving your converter a vacation, they can suck it. besides, it's worked so long without a vacation, it's earned it. damn labor unions.

P.P.S. thanks

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with this general statement, but I think that needs to be balanced against the forum turning into an online version of a 2+2 book...a topic followed by some examples would obscure a lot of what makes this forum the bomb.

I like the fact that I can present one specific permutation of a general concept, and hear about the nuances of that specific situation: for instance, "KQs in CO flops a backdoor flush draw and a gutshot versus a TAG and a LAG" would be much more educational to me than "playing missed overcards", where I can go read SSH to learn the general concepts. I feel like there does need to be some degree of generalization involved in the hand discussions, such as the whole KK when an Ace flops/QQ when a K flops issue, but debating the specifics is what makes the forum unique to me.

the trick then is finding posts where these subtle nuances are emphasized, as opposed to routine plays straight from <insert poker book or old well respected 2+2 post here>. I agree that this isn't trivial.

P.S. Bison, you've given enough to these forums that if people don't like you giving your converter a vacation, they can suck it. besides, it's worked so long without a vacation, it's earned it. damn labor unions.

P.P.S. thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

good points...

your point on the trick of things being to find the good posts makes me wonder about rating posts...

i know i'm often going to check out a post if i see stella, jbb, joe, bison and plenty others commenting on it...if people could rate a post and/or discussion, it'd provide a nice way to skip the drivel and look for great information...

i'm not sure if this is built into UBB, but if not, i'm sure we could customize it...

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
the non-poker banter in here was more fun than the non-poker banter in OOT

[/ QUOTE ]
Hell yea!

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the non-poker banter in here was more fun than the non-poker banter in OOT

[/ QUOTE ]
Hell yea!

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps bison could add a "Make this funny" option to his converter, so even the boring "me too" posts will come out with some value...

[Evan]

I've been reading your post for like 5 mintues, I think its an insult. Are you saying that my post was stupid or something? /images/graemlins/confused.gif (which it clearly is along with most of this thread /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

I guess I'll try to keep the clique banter to myself in the future. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

p.s. If this is not what you meant than consider evrything I said to be sarcasm.

[B Dids]

sfer suggested that a long time ago- and I believe something that followed involved fire and not pissing on him.

[meep_42]

I'm relatively new, and i'm not really sure what you're looking for. I pretty much post hands the way I see them posted, minus results (and I omit much of my thinking in the original post, as I feel that can influence responses).

Anyhow, what should I be doing to bring the quality of my posts up to par?

-d

[theghost]

[ QUOTE ]
If the converter is the only difference between the level of effort between the posts made here and the crap that gets posted in the zoo, I'd say that's pretty damning.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lighten up on the Zoo. The content is less serious, but certainly serves a purpose:
-Casino/bonus whoring opportunities
-Credibility of sites and services

[MAxx]

Requests on all streets welcome:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 1.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. Hero wins 1.75 BB. </font>

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been reading your post for like 5 mintues, I think its an insult. Are you saying that my post was stupid or something? /images/graemlins/confused.gif (which it clearly is along with most of this thread /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)


[/ QUOTE ]
nah, no insult. not saying it was stupid either, but more that i could deal reading any number of posts if they all had such humor as "the bed won't pee itself". that more than makes up for lack of poker substance. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]

I guess I'll try to keep the clique banter to myself in the future. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

p.s. If this is not what you meant than consider evrything I said to be sarcasm.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think people have much problems with the clutter of responses, as these just make the post longer, but more the number of original posts...i think banter's good and part of why people read others comments instead of 2+2 books all day long...

i do wonder about the rating of posts though...anyone want to comment on this?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
i do wonder about the rating of posts though...anyone want to comment on this?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like the idea. I think the reply count kinda does that.

[ErrantNight]

don't you know 7-2 is the worst hand in poker?!?!?

ohmygodyousuck.

but given the way you hit the flop, i'd probably wait for the river to semi-bluff.

[bisonbison]

i don't think people have much problems with the clutter of responses, as these just make the post longer, but more the number of original posts...i think banter's good and part of why people read others comments instead of 2+2 books all day long...

Yeah. Without the banter, I would not be here. Honest to god. And if people keep the OT-ness in one thread and don't create new threads about it, then I think the impact is minimal and people have a good time.

i do wonder about the rating of posts though...anyone want to comment on this?

Yeah. Rating of posts would be good. Just on a "very interesting question/hand" to "very boring question/hand" scale.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]


i don't think people have much problems with the clutter of responses, as these just make the post longer, but more the number of original posts...i think banter's good and part of why people read others comments instead of 2+2 books all day long...

Yeah. Without the banter, I would not be here. Honest to god. And if people keep the OT-ness in one thread and don't create new threads about it, then I think the impact is minimal and people have a good time.


[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

[ QUOTE ]

i do wonder about the rating of posts though...anyone want to comment on this?

Yeah. Rating of posts would be good. Just on a "very interesting question/hand" to "very boring question/hand" scale.

[/ QUOTE ]

that would work just fine for me. Evan mentioned the reply count, but especially having just agreed that banter is fine within posts, I don't think that its much help. In fact, i'm almost more likely to assume chatter/jokes/side talk if i see a big reply count. Currently all you can really see if who responded last.

Anyone communicate with Mat or the others running the forums here? It would be fairly easy to allow for some simple voting. I've customized phpBB before and could handle UBB just fine...

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]


Yeah. Rating of posts would be good. Just on a "very interesting question/hand" to "very boring question/hand" scale.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I know I often find hands interesting that both better and worse players will find boring, and I think this applies for pretty much everyone.

[IndieMatty]

For newish posters such as myself, the effort of typing up the post may actually be better instead of regurgitating their HH's and letting others point out the obvious. I'm very guilty of posting crap, but when I try posting a B&amp;M hand on here, and I have to type it up, I pretty much answer my own questions by the time I'm ready to hit submit.

This is good for me because this weekend I am breaking down and purchasing Poker Tracker, and I imagine theres a lot of crap I'll be able to play with instead of reading every dang post.

[bisonbison]

For me and many others, the ability to play back hands in PT is our best self-filter. 90% of the hands I think I should post look boring once I've looked again.

[B Dids]

I've been doing this. I think "this is a hand I should post" and because your converter hates 'Stars HHs I have to look through PT first. Then I replay it and am like "wait, this is boring, I shouldn't post this".

Btw- I think voting is a bad idea. I think it will just make the perception of a clique in SS ever worse, and then Scrub will be really annoyed. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw- I think voting is a bad idea. I think it will just make the perception of a clique in SS ever worse, and then Scrub will be really annoyed. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, ok some like it, some don't. I just know there are some discussions that I almost don't even see because they go by so quickly that have some really great analysis and points from some pretty knowledgeable people. In a situation like this, you almost need someone to have the power to sticky posts, move/delete posts, and use those powers...

edit: take this as example. humor combined with great, throughout, and well typed out analysis. I almost missed it, glad i didn't - JT lays into sthief (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1252316&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1)

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think voting is a bad idea. I think it will just make the perception of a clique in SS ever worse, and then Scrub will be really annoyed

[/ QUOTE ]
oooo, I say bring on the voting!!

[helpmeout]

Voting sucks always has always will.

You'll get the "That guy is my hero, I better rate all his threads up even if they suck"

And the "I dont like that guy so I'll rate his threads down"

[phrosty]

can you please post the link to the hand converter

[Evan]

Was the overwhelming sarcasm in my post not as evident as I thought

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
For me and many others, the ability to play back hands in PT is our best self-filter. 90% of the hands I think I should post look boring once I've looked again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was just me.

When I'm playing, I have notepad open and jot down hands that gave me trouble or I think are interesting (e.g., KK flops set on mono flop).

After my nightly session, I usually end up with 3 or 4 hands that I've noted. I pull them up in PT and they usually appear quite basic once I see them in isolation. It's rare that I find more than one that is interesting enough to post.

[NLSoldier]

LOL, until like the end of this thread I thought it was going to be unavailable because you were fixing it. Oh man was i confused. Why did you have to do this on the day that i vowed to finally start consistently posting hands while im playing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[_2000Flushes]

[ QUOTE ]
Now as you can see by the big number under the picture of my grandfather

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a man?

-2kF

[DrewOnTilt]

I second that, Bison. I don't know what all of these other posts say, but -

I would note that many of the posts made before you put the hand converter online simply were hand history posts. Even if the poster included reads, comments, et cetera, the action was tough to follow. Your converter has improved post legibility immensely.

[B Dids]

We totally have to fight now.

[UsedToBeARock]

/lurk off/

As you can see from the left, I don't post that much. However, I read 2+2 nearly every day. I think the converter is a very nice piece of work that makes discussion easier, and I applaud you for creating it.

However, I think that you may be mistaken if you think that 1 week without it will cure this forum of it's ills. Instead, how about using the time to enhance it to provide the ability for users to provide the context that the posts usually don't provide? Even if it's just a few extra text boxes (pre-flop, flop, turn, river), that might be enough.

/lurk on/

[bisonbison]

alright kids, the hold'em code has been disabled.

[Evan]

Does that mean we're doin it PLO8 style tonight?

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I would like to thank you for providing the HH converting and the free bandwidth to make it so we all can use it.

However, I would like to be a greedy selfish bastard. If there was some way If you could help me out I'd appreciate it. I use it for posting to my poker blog. So it means a week of ugly hand postings. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Thanks,
MarkV.

[Joe Tall]

Is it me or is this place seem to be buzzing this week w/multiple quality responses and posts that make it all day on the board, disscussed, rebutted and questioned?

Peacers,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

It's just you. Honestly.

[Joe Tall]

It's just you. Honestly.

You are the worst person to answer this, like this, the very worst. I don't know what to think now.

[bisonbison]

On Sunday, after I restore the converter, I'm gonna post a thread asking for feedback.

If the response is positive and the forum continues to have problems, I may consider doing this on a semi-regular (every couple of months) basis.

[Cerril]

I'm all in favor. But then, I prefer theory to practice when discussing poker. That is, if you can't make a general case out of the HH you're interested in posting, it probably isn't interesting.

[bisonbison]

That is, if you can't make a general case out of the HH you're interested in posting, it probably isn't interesting.

To each their own, I guess, but I think that's really dumb.

Poker hands are like snowflakes: They are frozen water built along rational lines.

[BottlesOf]

Huh? I just think the idea is retarded. Posts still fly off the front page if they're not interesting, and now we just have one less convenience.

Removing the converter in an attempt to stem off bad posts is not the right way to go about fixing the problem. It's like refusing to talk about contraception and only preaching abstinence in sex-ed classes to try and prevent teenagers from having sex.

How about THAT analogy! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[BottlesOf]

I agree. Snowflakes are pretty.

[Joe Tall]

Huh? I just think the idea is retarded

Like I said the worst one to answer.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Removing the converter in an attempt to stem off bad posts is not the right way to go about fixing the problem. It's like refusing to talk about contraception and only preaching abstinence in sex-ed classes to try and prevent teenagers from having sex.

[/ QUOTE ]
This thoughtful passage clearly demonstrates the improved discourse since the converter was turned off /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm all in favor. But then, I prefer theory to practice when discussing poker. That is, if you can't make a general case out of the HH you're interested in posting, it probably isn't interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most progress in understanding poker is made when someone realizes that two deals that look the same are actually different.

The best hold'em players realize that every hand is special and look for its unique features. Cookie cutter poker is mediocre poker.

[Joe Tall]

Posts still fly off the front page if they're not interesting, and now we just have one less convenience

For the first time in a while I saw 3 posts from the day before remain on the first page w/20+ responses. Open you fcking mind and eyes.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[bisonbison]

The best hold'em players realize that every hand is special and look for its unique features.

I'd just like to point out that for once, Stellar agreed with me and not the other way around. Happy Birthday INDEED.

[BottlesOf]

Great. I saw a post drop off in 30 minutes. (It was acutally mentioned in the post.) The better posts stay on longer than the uninteresting ones. Just like it always was...

[toby]

Bison if you don't mind me shooting some feedback right now, I'd like to mention that though your experiment worked (I think there seem to be more thoughtful posts and responses), I do miss the converter adding up the bets for me.

[Joe Tall]

Happy Birthday, bisonbison.

Now, can you tell us where the handle of 'bisonbison' came from?

Thanks,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

Dude, use complete sentences. I don't know what you're saying.

[bisonbison]

It's the Linnean name for american buffalo, which are pretty much the nuts.

that's it.

Joe, you'd know this if you read every single post I've ever made, which I recommend to EVERYONE.

[ErrantNight]

Isn't it great that this sprawling post no successfully obscures many other posts with its monstrous size?

[bisonbison]

Use compacted view. Honestly. Compacted-Flat is the only way to fly.

[ErrantNight]

i rotate...

but i'm just ribbing... this is my break between endless hours of intensive study of shakespeare's romances. save me.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Use compacted view. Honestly. Compacted-Flat is the only way to fly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Such a shame that you are wrong on your birthday. Expanded is the only way that flat mode makes sense.

[bisonbison]

this is my break between endless hours of intensive study of shakespeare's romances. save me.

Just go to class dressed as your sister and fall in love with the disguised... blah blah blah... Then at the end, WEDDINGS!

[bisonbison]

Expanded is the only way that flat mode makes sense.

Spam, a little effort and it all falls into place.

[ErrantNight]

you're thinking of the comedies /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bisonbison]

Eh, back in my day, you had your comedies, your tragedies and your history plays. None of this "romances are their own category" nonsense.

Let's put Romeo and Midsummer's together! BLAH.

[ErrantNight]

they're certainly odd... Pericles is awful at points, Cymbeline is outrageous and long, The Winter's Tale is underwhelming, only the Tempest is great... but they're a good group for independent study... and plays I'd never have read otherwise, although his command of the language is just ridiculous by this point

that said, i'm ready to be done. yesterday.

[B Dids]

HAPPY B-DAY TO BISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gaming_mouse]

Bison,

I don't have an opinion one or the other about the scheduled hiatus (since I havn't been using the converter recently anyway) but this did raise a question for me:

Why are you hosting the converter on a separatre site anyway? It seems that at this point twoplustwo should be.

Or, better yet, create a simple javascript parser so that posters could convert directly in the textarea where you type your post. The forums may be using canned software that wouldn't allow an alteration, but if they aren't I'd be glad to write assuming it was something people wanted.

Cheers,
gm

[Cerril]

I guess my point was, and I could get the probability forum to back me up here (or not), but chances are very good that I'll never have your hand all things included. Now the general case might not be all that general and HHs might be a better illustration than I was giving them credit for, but a lot of hand histories that do get posted here could be better summarized by default plays with certain ranges of hands, flops, and opponents.

[Cerril]

True enough, I guess I was just thinking along the lines that I still need a lot of general case improvement and from a lot of the SS HH posts, I'm not alone. However, you're right that at the higher end of play at any limit there is value in looking at specific hands.

[bisonbison]

Why are you hosting the converter on a separatre site anyway? It seems that at this point twoplustwo should be.

I'm not hosting it, another user, subq, is. No one from the management side of 2+2 has ever expressed an interest in the converter, and I'm fine with it either way.

Or, better yet, create a simple javascript parser so that posters could convert directly in the textarea where you type your post.

I wrote it in perlscript because perl is what I know and cause frankly I like to have control of the code. It's a link. You copy, paste, copy. I fail to see where jscript makes this a better process.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Or, better yet, create a simple javascript parser so that posters could convert directly in the textarea where you type your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm hoping we can take it a step further. integrate the converter with pokertracker so that I can select a hand, pick a title from a drop down list (see Appendix A), and have that hand automatically posted on all the relevant forums at 2+2 (one is usually not enough). one click is all it would take.

Appendix A - Subject Title Selection List (work in progress)
"I suck out goot!"
"Look at this idiot!"
"Aces get cracked.. again.. *SIGH*"
"Did I extract the maximum from my flopped quads?"

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a link. You copy, paste, copy. I fail to see where jscript makes this a better process.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Javascript would be on the forum page itself. Down below where I'm typing, where the gremlins and what not are, there would be a button that said: "convert hand," along with some options for conversion. It would automatically convert what was in the text area.

Thus you remove the extra browser window and remove the cut and paste process.

gm

[gaming_mouse]

BTW, bison, I hope you did not take my comments as any sort of negative criticism of the converter. To the contrary, I think it's so useful it should be incorporated directly into the forums.

Cheers,
gm

[bisonbison]

Oh, I understand, but basically, unless 2+2 makes an offer, there's nothing I can do.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I understand, but basically, unless 2+2 makes an offer, there's nothing I can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know. They should make an offer, though. Maybe we could get some people to email whoever makes that decision, or start a thread and email the link to that. I'm sure nearly everyone would be for it.

Anyway, I know you probably wouldn't want to do that yourself, as it might appear vain, but I'm just throwing the idea out there.... Maybe something will spark.

gm

[bisonbison]

Well, the other thing is (and I don't know how much this factors into their thinking):

by attaching it to 2+2, it becomes part of 2+2's web-presence. 2+2 is a money-making venture, and they'd be crazy not to demand some accountability for the converter's quality and reliability. I wouldn't want to be accountable without getting paid, blah blah blah...

[DMBFan23]

also, we wouldnt be able to send it on vacation as easily, when that is necessary

[gaming_mouse]

and they'd be crazy not to demand some accountability for the converter's quality and reliability. I wouldn't want to be accountable without getting paid, blah blah blah...

I certainly understand your feelings, and if they did demand some kind of anything I wouldn't do either, if I were you.

But honestly, as a money making venture, they would stupid NOT to accept it for free (assuming you would give it) and then take responsibility for it themselves. I'd think they would be happy to have it. But who knows?

gm

[sexypanda]

Hey,

I'm relatively new to the forum but have, so far, enjoyed the posts this week more than any other. I thought of this last night and was wondering if anyone else thought this was an interesting idea for how to continue with the interesting posts yet have the convenience of the BisonBison converter. My idea basically is to have the converter make its normal conversion but blank out Hero's move on each street, forcing the hero to manually edit the hand and type in his play throughout. This would force the poster to analyze his hand while posting but, at the same time, give him most the convienences of converter. For example:

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, <font color="red">Hero ____</font>, CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="red">Hero ____</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="red">Hero ____</font>, CO raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="red">Hero ____</font>, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

...

Now, the poster has to go through and edit the hand, and while doing this, he might realize his error and not even post the hand. I believe he will also be more likely to add reads, etc.

Any thoughts?

[bisonbison]

Any thoughts?

Panda, unfortunately, I think that's just going to piss people off. It would piss me off.

[House-Lion]

PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD NOW!

It is cluttering the forum.

[bisonbison]

converter back up