do you call here, knowing you dont have the best hand?

[joao_,martins]

100+20, 10 player sit n go. 6 handed, blinds 100/200. I am at t3800.
UTG has t1100 and wants to go all-in, but since he is also drunk he puts out all his chips but says call... and then retracts his statement. of course he is not allowed to go all-in and thus it is still 200 to go. UTG is tight though ( once not re-raising with wired kings ).
I am MP+1 with J-10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif's, i call.
SB calls and BB checks.
Pot at 800.
Flop comes J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif-9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif-4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets all in for 600, BB folds, UTG re-raises all-in.
The pot to me is 2300.
The question here is, knowing i have the worst hand but a flush draw do i call in hopes to knock out two players?... or do i fold knowing one will either be knocked out or severely short-stacked and ill come out only losing 200?

I ended up folding.
SB had J-7
UTG had Kings.
No spade, jack or ten came out either.

[ChrisV]

Why on earth are you calling preflop with JTs when you know UTG wanted to go allin? JTs is a pretty bad hand at the best of times. When you hit one of the best possible flops for your hand and are still folding to UTG's inevitable allin, aren't you questioning why you're in the hand in the first place?

[poboy]

Seeing a flop cheap w/ suited connectors isn't a bad idea, especially considering UTG wants to go all-in(the implied odds are enormous). That flop isn't even close to the best he could hope for. Suppose he actually does catch a great flop(2 pr,flush,str8,trips) he will without a doubt be paid off. If you're folding JTs w/ a deep stack in an unraised pot you are playing way too tight. JMO

[wjmooner]

Well, we don't know the exact suits of your opponent's cards, but folding here would be HORRIBLE. Why? Because you might be a favorite to win the hand. As a matter of fact, if neither one of your opponents had a spade you were the favorite (see below).

Factor in the money already in the pot and this is an easy call. From Twodimes.net:

Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 9s 4s Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Ts 427 47.29 470 52.05 6 0.66 0.476
Kd Kh 419 46.40 484 53.60 0 0.00 0.464
7c Jd 51 5.65 846 93.69 6 0.66 0.060

So, in conclusion, we actually think we DO have the best hand, so we call.

WJ

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
JTs is a pretty bad hand at the best of times.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? At the "best of times," JTs is a great hand. It can make the most straights, and flushes.

[ChrisV]

How can the "implied odds be enormous"? UTG only has 900 chips left after calling and you're calling for 200. Your stack is deep, but nobody else's is, so it doesn't matter.

Really kickass flops (2 pair, flush, straight, trips) are very rare and the same arguments about getting paid off on a good flop apply to 74s as well (JTs is a bit more likely to flop a straight, but thats the only difference).

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
How can the "implied odds be enormous"? UTG only has 900 chips left after calling and you're calling for 200. Your stack is deep, but nobody else's is, so it doesn't matter.

Really kickass flops (2 pair, flush, straight, trips) are very rare and the same arguments about getting paid off on a good flop apply to 74s as well (JTs is a bit more likely to flop a straight, but thats the only difference).

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't notice UTG had only 900 left, however this would swing the decision to play the hand even more towards a call(he doesn't have enough chips to really hurt me). Comparing 74s to JTs is like apples and oranges. How can JTs only be a little more likely to make a str8, not only can it make more str8's but it makes nut str8's. The flush it makes is more likely to hold up, the same w/ 2 pr. Like I said if you're folding big suited connectors in an unraised pot w/ a deep stack you are playing weak-tight scared poker.

[ChrisV]

What kind of reasoning is "he doesn't have enough chips to really hurt me"? I like the way you've switched the argument from "stacks are deep, so I should call" to "stacks are shallow, so I should call".

74s is really not that different to JTs here. It's half as likely to flop a straight but neither of them are very likely at all to flop a straight so it doesn't make that much difference. Given UTG's range of hands (AK, AA, KK, etc etc) both JTs and 74s are likely to be outmatched. (JTs is better against TT and maybe 99, but it's also more likely to be dominated).

"Like I said if you're folding big suited connectors in an unraised pot w/ a deep stack you are playing weak-tight scared poker."

If you're limping in vs a shallow-stacked opponent with a hand that you know is certainly beaten and very likely dominated, you're playing stupid poker.

[willie24]

this is an easy call in any game as you have a tremendous amount of outs, and good pot odds. the fact that this is a tournament, and any implications of that fact, aren't important enough to change this from a call.

[DCIAce]

The preflop call is marginal, but not bad. Folding the flop is absolutely terrible.. if you intend to fold on a fantastic flop, then the preflop call was awful too.