AdamL
11-11-2004, 07:07 AM
I'm Adam, and I'm a recovering FPS sufferer. This is a part of my therapy /images/graemlins/wink.gif, but it is also a bit of a rant. That's fine though, because we all know the rants get all the best responses. You've been warned.
There is a Sklansky concept in poker which generally goes like this:
"Since you make your money when your opponents play differently than they would if they could see your hole cards, you should keep the pot small preflop so that they will not have odds to draw postflop."
It often seems to come up when someone is sitting on JJ in the BB and has a few limpers, or something like KQ/AJ UTG. The problem is, it seems to be over-applied. I've been there. The conditions for when not raising preflop are correct are not quite as common at a Party 3/6 game as I used to think.
"I didn't raise JJ on the big blind because I didn't want people to have odds to chase two-pair after the flop."
If you raise preflop, you make them pay 3 SB to see the turn instead of 2 SB. Their odds of hitting 2-pair by the turn are pretty horrible from the get-go, why not make them put in extra money when they are far, far behind? They already are making a mistake by playing the hand in the first place. Would you check AA or KK on the BB?
Let me go through an example of when I think this gets misapplied. Somebody PLEASE chime in with an example when raising preflop (for the above reason) is NOT correct. I'm sure there are times, but I think they are more rare than gits like me have convinced ourselves of.
Ok, so you decide to raise preflop with JJ in the BB against a few limpers, all of whom you are better than.
The flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. 8SB, 4 players. Great!
You bet and there are 9SB in the pot now. A loose player calls.
The turn brings the 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
You bet, your opponent raises, and for this example's sake, you see a showdown with him flipping 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for two pair. (You might fold if he was LP-P)
I just don't see raising preflop being a mistake here "because you gave him odds to chase".
When did he have odds?
Lets see. You made him put in 2 SB preflop with about a 1:4 pot odds. He had about a 1 in 50 chance of hitting two pair, and a 1 in 8 chance of flopping a straight draw. No problem here.
"But on the flop he had odds to chase his two-pair"
He had pot odds, but he is putting in an extra bet on the flop 1:1 with you. Most of that pot is yours, and every extra bet he puts in is yours. (Thanks DavidC) He's 8.2 to 1 to make two-pair here. His equity in this pot is about 1SB. If he calls your flop bet because you raised preflop and make this nice 8.5BB pot, you are getting an extra 2SB. 1 extra SB on the preflop, and 1 extra SB on the flop.
When he calls your flop bet, he has put in 3SB total for this hand, with the pot laying 9SB on the flop *after your bet*.
Put yourself in his shoes. If you *had* to play this hand, do you want to see a flop for 1SB and go from there, or pay 2SB preflop, hit a weak draw, and have to pay an extra SB just to try and catch on the turn due to "pot odds"?
Raise preflop. Make worse hands pay extra bets. Don't wait for them to make their mistakes preflop, because you can profit from their mistakes right now.
/rant
This thread won't be complete until somebody posts some good examples of CORRECT "limping not to build a big pot preflop" instances.
Thanks guys.
There is a Sklansky concept in poker which generally goes like this:
"Since you make your money when your opponents play differently than they would if they could see your hole cards, you should keep the pot small preflop so that they will not have odds to draw postflop."
It often seems to come up when someone is sitting on JJ in the BB and has a few limpers, or something like KQ/AJ UTG. The problem is, it seems to be over-applied. I've been there. The conditions for when not raising preflop are correct are not quite as common at a Party 3/6 game as I used to think.
"I didn't raise JJ on the big blind because I didn't want people to have odds to chase two-pair after the flop."
If you raise preflop, you make them pay 3 SB to see the turn instead of 2 SB. Their odds of hitting 2-pair by the turn are pretty horrible from the get-go, why not make them put in extra money when they are far, far behind? They already are making a mistake by playing the hand in the first place. Would you check AA or KK on the BB?
Let me go through an example of when I think this gets misapplied. Somebody PLEASE chime in with an example when raising preflop (for the above reason) is NOT correct. I'm sure there are times, but I think they are more rare than gits like me have convinced ourselves of.
Ok, so you decide to raise preflop with JJ in the BB against a few limpers, all of whom you are better than.
The flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. 8SB, 4 players. Great!
You bet and there are 9SB in the pot now. A loose player calls.
The turn brings the 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
You bet, your opponent raises, and for this example's sake, you see a showdown with him flipping 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for two pair. (You might fold if he was LP-P)
I just don't see raising preflop being a mistake here "because you gave him odds to chase".
When did he have odds?
Lets see. You made him put in 2 SB preflop with about a 1:4 pot odds. He had about a 1 in 50 chance of hitting two pair, and a 1 in 8 chance of flopping a straight draw. No problem here.
"But on the flop he had odds to chase his two-pair"
He had pot odds, but he is putting in an extra bet on the flop 1:1 with you. Most of that pot is yours, and every extra bet he puts in is yours. (Thanks DavidC) He's 8.2 to 1 to make two-pair here. His equity in this pot is about 1SB. If he calls your flop bet because you raised preflop and make this nice 8.5BB pot, you are getting an extra 2SB. 1 extra SB on the preflop, and 1 extra SB on the flop.
When he calls your flop bet, he has put in 3SB total for this hand, with the pot laying 9SB on the flop *after your bet*.
Put yourself in his shoes. If you *had* to play this hand, do you want to see a flop for 1SB and go from there, or pay 2SB preflop, hit a weak draw, and have to pay an extra SB just to try and catch on the turn due to "pot odds"?
Raise preflop. Make worse hands pay extra bets. Don't wait for them to make their mistakes preflop, because you can profit from their mistakes right now.
/rant
This thread won't be complete until somebody posts some good examples of CORRECT "limping not to build a big pot preflop" instances.
Thanks guys.