Hand Quiz - Know your stuff?? Wondering about your game? [Analysis]

[RED_RAIN]

Assume typical $15/$30 10 handed PartyPoker game.

UTG is semi-lag. Don't know cutoff, button seems decent. BB is new.

You are in the SB with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Preflop: UTG Raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 cold calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO cold calls, Button folds, Hero (You) cold calls, BB calls.

Flop (5 Players): 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Hero (You) ?



<font color="blue"> Now almost as important or more important as with most poker decisions, think about what you should do, but also post on why you do it. Also maybe plan for rest of hand.</font>

[Rubeskies]

Why didn't you 3-bet preflop?

because he was a UTG raiser?

[Sundevils21]

Pot is decent size and I want to maximize my chances to win. I bet out, hoping that UTG raises and faces the table with 2cold. I like heads up pots with lotsa dead money in the pot.
The rest of the hand...
(assuming UTG raises and we are heads up)
I call the flop raise and lead the turn. Then his decision tells me what to do. If he raises, then I call and check/call the river. If he calls, then I lead the river.

[bisonbison]

since you're sitting in a typical 15/30 game, I assume you're going to share the reads you'd typically have for individual players.

[RED_RAIN]

Assume no reads, you just got in the BB and now you are in the SB. I always have it assumed no reads unless there are written.

[bisonbison]

why would you pick a table where you know no one?

I'm not just doing this to be difficult.

[RED_RAIN]

I know, but I could change this senario to live. Let's just go off no player notes. I'm more interested in the play than off individual player notes right. Yes I agree, anyone who plays 15/30 should have notes on probably 7-8 players at the table. But that isn't the purpose of this post.

But if you do need something to go off of.

UTG is semi-lag. Don't know cutoff, button seems decent. BB is new.

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume typical $15/$30 10 handed PartyPoker game.



You are in the SB with T /images/graemlins/heart.gif, T /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Preflop: UTG Raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 cold calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO cold calls, Button folds, Hero (You) cold calls, BB calls.

Flop (5 Players): 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Hero (You) ?



<font color="blue"> Now almost as important or more important as with most poker decisions, think about what you should do, but also post on why you do it. Also maybe plan for rest of hand.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play up at $15/$30, but I think this hand is very, very player dependent here. The range of hands UTG will open raise with when, well, UTG, can really change my opinion of how to play this.

It's a bit of a tossup for me between check-raising and leading out. I think we can all agree that you won't often miss a check-raise attempt here. The question is, what kind of hands is UTG raising, and what kinda hands is CO cold-calling with?

My goal here is both to feel out where I'm at in the hand while protecting my hand as much as possible, and narrowing the field wouldn't hurt. Is UTG the kind of player who will raise in this position with just missed overcards? If not I think the check-raise might be your best option, as I can't imagine UTG ever NOT betting out if checked to.

I think my basic plan of attack here... if the table is "normal," meaning not very LAGGY, I'd probably go for a check raise. If it comes back two cold to me, I probably fold without much thought. If not, I hit my check raise, and see if I get threebet. If so, I'd probably pretty easily give it up. If the table, especially UTG, is a known LAG, I'll lead here, hoping to get raised so the rest of the field has to call two cold, and I'll threebet when it gets back to me.


Wow, I'm pretty much a wishy washy muddlehead in this hand.

[RED_RAIN]

Recheck, added some reads.

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume typical $15/$30 10 handed PartyPoker game.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, I have no clue what I'd do now. Mabye the same?

When it read, "Assume typical $2/$4 10 handed PartyPoker game." I like my answer. Judge me on what it said when it read 2-4.

[RED_RAIN]

Yeah I changed the limit to add a bit of thought for this area of the forum.

[slavic]

Since for some strange reason I didn't 3 bet this preflop. I check and let the laggy UTG (I hope you mean he's aggressive postflop too) bet and see what happens. Depending on what I know of the player that raises the lag I'll 3 bet the flop or fold.

Position relative to the raiser sucks in this case so I think a preflop 3 bet is better. Your better players aren't going to mess with you much when you 3 bet several players from the SB. Also when you 3 bet the BB folds and removes the toughest player to read at the table.

[J.R.]

I'd typically bet and hope lag raises. If I felt the preflop coldcallers would make loose coldcalls on the flop (ie they won't fold overcards), I could/might check and, depending on the flop action, either consider folding (but i'm not famialr with what flop aggression might mean in 15-30- and it would suck to fold if lag bets overcards and a flush draw pops it), check-raise/check-3-bet an LP bet/raise or simply call if lag utg bets and then formulate a plan for the turn involving possibly betting out on a favorable card (hoping lag raises a worse hand like 2 overcrads) or getting away from my hand if its something like a diamond or an A and there is turn action after my check. If I didn't think LAG would raise my turn bet on a safe card (ie non diamond low card) I'd consider check-raising for value (or protection if the bet came from a later positon). Congrats on 15-30.

[bicyclekick]

he doesn't play 15/30 yet cause he lacks the balls... /images/graemlins/grin.gif He has the skill hands down and says he may make the jump next week. Who knows. He didn't play this hand, it's just hypothetical.

[AdamL]

I guess it's between check-raising or leading out.

The problem with check-raising is this: If UTG bets your check-raise isn't going to face overcards with two bets. Furthermore, if the bet doesn't come from UTG, you have a much higher chance of check-raising a better hand than yours, and being 3-bet.

So, check-raising here is kinda ackward. I like the bet out and hope UTG raises. Then 3-bet it.

You'll also get loads of info if you get capped or if someone calls two-cold, and then suddenly comes alive on the turn.

15-30 is pretty aggressive though. You might bet, and have it 3-bet when it gets back to you, and still have the best hand. Scary stuff.

Critique appreciated.

[Festus22]

This MUST be 3-bet PF to get rid of the BB. If UTG capped, that would lead to a line of play much different than if he called the 3-bet.

[AdamL]

I always thought you lean towards 3-betting preflop when you have good position on the raiser, and lean towards calling when you are out of position.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Since for some strange reason I didn't 3 bet this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more interested in this part of the hand than the flop. Though TT is a 3 betting hand more often than not, in this situation I agree with a cold call rather than 3 bet.

[jordanx]

I'd bet, hoping UTG has the sense to raise his trash AJo and then face CO's 77 and BB's A9 /images/graemlins/club.gif w/ two bets.

If 3-bet by CO (okay, maybe he had JJ) or BB (I guess it was A8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) then I'd deeply consider laying this down.

Otherwise, I 3-bet it to make any remaining player pay to draw, especially UTG w/ his overcards. Unless he caps it, which he wouldn't because if he had a hand, he would call my bet on the flop and then raise me on the turn.

Now, if I bet and everyone calls, I scratch my head and spike the T /images/graemlins/heart.gifs on the turn. Then check raise CO who is slowplaying KK.

[chesspain]

Maybe you all should check out this hand from Mid-High stakes:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1240057&amp;page=0&amp;view=e xpanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#Post1244959

[Bluffoon]

My old answer would be to bet out and hope for a raise by UTG.

Now my line is check-call a bet, reluctantly cold call if it comes back to me for one raise, fold if it comes back to me three bet and then check-raise the turn if the flush card or overcard does not come.

The reasoning is to forgo any small flop edge for the large edge you will have on the turn if bad cards dont fall. Im a reluctant convert to this line but the case for it is strong and I am test-driving it.

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
The reasoning is to forgo any small flop edge for the large edge you will have on the turn if bad cards dont fall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that point is outwieghed by the fact that you have a really good chance to protect your hand here. If you somehow knew that everyone was going to call 2 bets cold, then I say you're absolutly right.

[Bluffoon]

I kind of agree. But lets say you check and there is a bet and three of you go to the turn. For arguments sake:

cards win %win
Ad Jd 361 39.98
Qc Ah 109 12.07
Tc Td 421 46.62

Now if the turn is a rag, say 4s:

cards win %win
Ad Jd 11 26.19
Qc Ah 4 9.52
Tc Td 27 64.29

Your winning chances go way up. Is this enough of a benefit to risk waiting to raise. Im not sure. But I am willing to try it and see what kind of results I get in the real world. Fire away....

[J.R.]

"This MUST be 3-bet PF to get rid of the BB. If UTG capped, that would lead to a line of play much different than if he called the 3-bet."

I think you're 3-betting because the first raise came from a loose aggressive player and you have lots of equity here with TT, not because you have to get rid of the BB. If the BB does something ou want him to do, more power to him, but in a pot that is already likely to be 4 handed, folding the BB isn't a huge concern.

[J.R.]

"I always thought you lean towards 3-betting preflop when you have good position on the raiser, and lean towards calling when you are out of position."

I'm not sure if you're asking this of me cause I didn't get into the preflop decision (Ithink others made that clear) but position matters, yet your hand, the likely range of the raiser's hands, the number of opponents who have coldcalled, their likely coldcalling hands, the number of opponents yet to act, and how they will respond to a call or a 3-bet, and how your opponents play postflop are all more importnat factors, IMO.

[bicyclekick]

I think he's just saying 3 bet pf cause he saw it in the mid-high post.

[MAxx]

I have not looked at other answers.

My initial thought was to lead and have UTG raise to knock people out. Then, I thought that there is a an excellent chance that you will not be able to knock out anyone out and UTG maynot raise and you may just give people more a reason to chase. You cannot get flush draws or better hands out anyway. I am leaning toward ch/calling a flop bet and c/r "TURN"(edit to include word)any non diamond non face card. Flop action dependant.

now I am going to read other peoples responses and see why i am wrong.

[J.R.]

Nope, read this one (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1244956&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

[MAxx]

J.R. that is a very similar thread. I am thinking that the answer is somewhat dependant on the game, UTG aggroness, and table dynamics.

I have been thinking more about postflop business, and less about preflop. I would have 3bet preflop in a most cases.

Is it very clear to you what is the correct line postflop, or do you think that "it depends."

[RED_RAIN]

[RED_RAIN]

You are the best hand reader I have ever seen. Seriously if you're BB/100 isn't at like 20 with knowing all the players hands, wow.

[Jeff W]

I bet the flop because UTG is semi-lag, so I expect him to raise me with overcards here often enough to counterbalance the equity I lose when he calls and gives the field odds to call weak draws on the flop and turn. I have the Td so I have backdoor outs to a flush and the paired board means I am less vulnerable to redraws if I hit a full house and have redraws against a flush draw.

My decisions on future streets depend on how many players see the turn, the actions of UTG and the turn card.

[Festus22]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he's just saying 3 bet pf cause he saw it in the mid-high post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

You're posts have taken on quite an edge recently. I think you've read too many Astroglide posts.

Tell me why calling is better and I'll be happy to share why I think 3-betting is better. And because Mike I. did it will not be my response.

[jordanx]

3-bet pre flop.

Pot is big and you want to get HU vs. the LAGish UTG ASAP. Starting w/ eliminating BB here.

TT is not a powerhouse, I want as few people seeing the flop as possible and this is an opportunity to eliminate one of them.

[jordanx]

That's a good post w/ a lot of intelligent commentary, but UTG raiser WPT Star is likely better than our "Semi-LAG" here, in addition, we are SB here, not BB and not closing the action pre-flop.

Which makes for an easier 3-betting situation here.

[bicyclekick]

Yeah, maybe I'll just quit posting for awhile. I've just been real crabby with school work and have had only a handful of hours to play poker in the last few weeks.

My appologies,
Brian