filthy limpers

[stripsqueez]

$50 NL SNG on empire

i get the major suit Q's in the BB - its about hand 5 and so far all have survived

6 limpers and a completer to me - whats a plan ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[adanthar]

All in and pray you get a call from an LP 44. This works much better nights than days, though.

During the day, raise to t100 and pray someone reraises their AQ all in, instead.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
$50 NL SNG on empire

i get the major suit Q's in the BB - its about hand 5 and so far all have survived

6 limpers and a completer to me - whats a plan ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise pot and hope no overcards flop when you get callers. Take a stab anyway if they do.

eastbay

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot and hope no overcards flop when you get callers. Take a stab anyway if they do

[/ QUOTE ]

before editing you suggested raise to T300 which was spooky because thats what i eventually did (i had a big think)

the fifth limper had AA so he raised to T600 and i eventually lost all but T160 of my precious chips

naturally i'm now thinking i should of gone with plan B - check and probably check/fold unimproved - i'm turning weak tight into an art form early

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise pot and hope no overcards flop when you get callers. Take a stab anyway if they do

[/ QUOTE ]

before editing you suggested raise to T300 which was spooky because thats what i eventually did (i had a big think)

the fifth limper had AA so he raised to T600 and i eventually lost all but T160 of my precious chips

naturally i'm now thinking i should of gone with plan B - check and probably check/fold unimproved - i'm turning weak tight into an art form early

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

check/check fold!? I think you're being facetious...

My raise to 300 was for blinds 25/50, not 10/15. I'm trying to build the pot while keeping it something like 3-handed to the flop. That's really what drives my raise here.

eastbay

[Jason Strasser]

Are you running bad?

Raise QQ preflop.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you running bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

no i'm not running bad - i just find myself tending more towards protecting my chips early

with 7 other players i figure i have to raise a decent chunk to scare off at least 5 of them - i simply dont want to invest a lot of chips in a multiway pot because although my chip EV might be through the roof (i'm a limit player so nothing gives me greater delight than raising 7 limpers with this hand in a limit game) my reasonable expectation of winning the pot say 3 handed after the flop is not likely more than 50% at a guess - my expectation in the tournament is much more about my chances of winning the pot than my chip EV at this stage

i dont think raising the pot is a great plan - it may well be 4 or 5 handed on the flop if i do that and that just doesnt appeal - even without the overcard hitting there are a bunch of hands that will get all my chips - if i told you that raising the pot will cause 4 guys with smaller pocket pairs to call do you still want to do it ? - i prefer raising more because now i'll get rid of more limpers and my expectation of winning the pot will increase - but to do that i have to take a decent sized risk with a big chunk of my stack

i like plan B - bugger all risk - if a Q hits i very likely get a bunch of chips

to consider how close this might be imagine you had JJ or 1010 in the same spot with only 3 limpers - i'm confident a common view would be to check and hope to hit the flop - QQ is a better hand but from the front against 7 limpers surely the same plan for JJ becomes reasonable ?

either that or i'm swinging too far into weak tight mode - its all good

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[ThorGoT]

Stripsqueez --

What did you think he had when he raised to 600? What was your plan?

ThorGoT

[willie24]

huh?

allin

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
What did you think he had when he raised to 600? What was your plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought he could have a very broad range of hands - i mean what do you put a guy on when he is the fourth over limper but then reraises about 75% of his stack ? - it was said earlier in this thread but there are so many crazy guys early that stuff like 33 or 97s isnt out of the question

given my "read" i was always pushing if someone reraised the flop - it would be different if i knew the player or perhaps if the first limper reraised - i pretty much committed my stack pre-flop when i raised to T300

the hand and result bore me after i decided to raise the flop to T300 - it would be good if someone could address the pre-flop argument - i would settle for "QQ is a rock so your thinking like a weak tight loser" - i'd be happy to say it to you if its what i thought

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

the hand and result bore me after i decided to raise the flop to T300 - it would be good if someone could address the pre-flop argument - i would settle for "QQ is a rock so your thinking like a weak tight loser" - i'd be happy to say it to you if its what i thought


[/ QUOTE ]

OK then..

Early in the tournament, chip EV is very close to money EV, so not raising a bunch of limpers here is as much of a sin as not raising a bunch of limpers in a cash game.

Guy.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Early in the tournament, chip EV is very close to money EV, so not raising a bunch of limpers here is as much of a sin as not raising a bunch of limpers in a cash game

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm grateful that someone bothered to attempt an answer to what seems to me to be a fundamental issue about tournament poker

i figure that the value of tournament chips gets closer to representing your expectation of making money in the tournament the closer to the end of the tournament you get - i therefore think that in the early stages of a tournament the money value of your chips is at its smallest

if i'm right then there are 2 possibilities when considering your reply - A) you think that the relationship between your tournament chips and money expectation in a tournament is "very close" throughout the course of a tournament - or - B) your wrong

what would you do in the same spot as i describe in this post if you had JJ instead of QQ ? - if its different to what you would do with QQ why is it different ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Avgard]

The question back to you would be what would you do with KK in your position. The result would have been the same, but, would you have raised and then push with KK. Seems straight forward. Yes.

The AA played his hand interesting. Willing to let the whole table beat his hand, from late position no less (if I am reading the hand layout correctly). Raising like you did was perfect. If everyone folds, great. You made a handsome profit. If they playback from late position, you push. They could have 99 and spike a 9. It doesn't make the play wrong, even though you lost your chips.

It is a good idea to play tight early, but not with premium hands. You need to get people to put chips in when you have a great hand. Early or late in the tournament.

You mention JJ or 1010. Each being exponentially worse than QQ. Even one step down (JJ) opens up many more 50/50 propositions to your hand. Not something you want early.

Sitting there, as you were, with one of the four top premium hands, with so many limpers, demands a raise. A significant raise at that. If you follow the rule of raising 3xBB plus 1BB for every player in the pot, your raise needs to be significant to pare down the players.

You played the hand correctly and you happened to have lost. Player with AA originally misplayed his hand, but you didn't. Don't become weaker because of what happened. Do the same play next time it comes up.

[Chief911]

Strip,

I just love your title. I haven't even read much of the post, just wanted to say I LOVE the title. Ever find yourself sitting in the BB or such with a mediocre hand (Shall we say KT) and saying "Filthy GD limpers, get off my blind" and pushing.

Filthy limpers.

Nick

[A J Carisse]

You definitely want to put in a raise here. Mostly to build the pot, although you want to narrow the field as well. It's one thing to play premium hands, but it's another to play scared when you have them. You don't want to do that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So how much do you raise? I'd look back to see what kind of raises people are calling. You could go the T100, but you don't want them all calling. Somewhere between this and T200, depending on how loose they are calling, to knock it down to 2-3 opponents. You want the junk hands out here particularly because the flop you want is 3 low cards, and you don't want this hitting people.

Now, anytime you have a hand like this there's always the risk that someone has AA or KK. They've all called though and you don't find people playing second hand low too much in these tourneys. If they are, you're in trouble plain and simple. You can't worry about this though at all.

You suggested that you would consider checking and folding if your hand was unimproved. You were joking right? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

The main differences between this, JJ, and TT is that (a) there's less hands you need to worry about with QQ, and (b) the chances are higher that you aren't going to run into overcards later. So it can be played more strongly. This is a hand which often wins unimproved in a showdown, more so than the others.

Worry more about making the right play in cases like this, and don't worry about getting stung or even going out while you're doing so. In the Empire/Party format with SNG's, you're going to have to make a lot closer decisions than this later, so you need to accumulate chips while you can. You may not get a better hand than this all tourney in fact.

What is the relative value of your chips now compared to later? I'm going to say they are more valuable NOW. Here's why. The chips buy you more now. Take T100 for instance. That can buy you a look at 5 hands at the first level, and over 3 at the second. Later on, that's only a downpayment on one. More importantly, those chips can double up or more later when you have to open it up. If you go all in with T600, say, and win, you'd have 200 chips for every 100 you lost earlier.

Good luck
A.J.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
You played the hand correctly and you happened to have lost. Player with AA originally misplayed his hand, but you didn't. Don't become weaker because of what happened. Do the same play next time it comes up.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats good advice but i dont think i need it - i think i played the hand ok - i had a good plan - it doesnt trouble me much to lose to a chook who over limps 4 other guys with AA - long term that guy is putting my kids through private school

mostly as i think i have said the hand sparked my interest in tournament theory and why its right to play very very tight early in a SNG - i appreciate that QQ is a significantly better hand than JJ but from the front against 7 limpers is an exceptional spot - QQ is a big hand but good tournament play is a lot about the ability to recognise that the value of a given hand changes radically over the time it takes to play the tournament

if i had this hand again as horrible as many think it is i think i would check pre-flop - not because i expect someone to have AA or KK but because its just too much risk this early

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the relative value of your chips now compared to later? I'm going to say they are more valuable NOW. Here's why. The chips buy you more now. Take T100 for instance. That can buy you a look at 5 hands at the first level, and over 3 at the second. Later on, that's only a downpayment on one. More importantly, those chips can double up or more later when you have to open it up. If you go all in with T600, say, and win, you'd have 200 chips for every 100 you lost earlier

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for your reply

i dont like your reasoning - tournament poker theory as it currently stands is such complete garbage that i find myself unable to concisely describe why i dont like your reasoning

i think that the value of winning chips early in a SNG is far removed from your $$ expectation - the value of winning early chips is best described in my view as the increased capacity to get even more chips - let me reply with a proposition that seems to stand in contrast to your statement

i would rather reach the first hand of the blinds being 100/200 80% of the time with T700 chips than reach the same hand 60% of the time with T1400 chips

you may think 60% is the wrong number but thats not my point - i doubt you would disagree with my numbers if i changed 60% to 40%

sure i can see a lot of flops cheaply at the earlier levels but that is of no use to me unless i hit a flop so hard that i'm prepared to risk my stack and thats not happening very often

the other remark i might make is that whilst i think the value of your chips increases as the tournament progresses it is true that because the blinds go up quickly those chips buy you less hands - i think these are different issues

stripsqueez - chickenhawk