Roger Clemens....

[Sooga]

.... best right-handed pitcher ever?

Ok, he just won his SEVENTH Cy Young Award... Yea, the award itself has only been around since 1967, but seriously. Seven is retarded. He's 10th on the all-time wins list (which may last a VERY long time), he's 2nd on the strikeout list (again, which should last a pretty long time) His .667 career winning percentage is way up on the list (couldn't find the exact list, but it's way up there), and not to mention he also has 6 ERA titles. Oh, and he did much of this during the homer-happy 90's.

Now that I think about it, Clemens has to be the best righty ever. Is it even close?

[Tyler Durden]

Nolan Ryan? I dunno.

[JTG51]

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Nolan Ryan? I dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nolan Ryan was one of my favorite players, but he's not even in the same league as Roger Clemens.

I don't think there's much doubt that Clemens is the best pitcher (left or right handed) since WWII. It's hard to compare him to pitchers before then since the game was so different. I'll leave that to Andy Fox.

[Toro]

I wouldn't go that far. Just off the top, Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson. How can you sya he's better than them.

It's a whole different era now with starters only going 7 innings

[JTG51]

I wouldn't go that far. Just off the top, Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson. How can you sya he's better than them.

Gibson and Koufax pitched in an era that was dominated by pitchers. In '68 when Gibson's ERA was 1.12, the league ERA was 2.90.

To account for that, baseball-reference.com uses a stat called ERA+. It's the ratio of the league's ERA to a pitchers ERA, and it's adjusted for each pitcher's ballpark. A higher number is better.

ERA+ for each pitcher's career:

Gibson: 127
Koufax: 131
Clemens: 141

Clemens has (so far) 197 more wins than Koufax and 77 more than Gibson. His winning percentage is also a bit higher than Koufax and significantly higher than Gibson.

Gibson and Koufax may have each had a better peak year, but Clemens has had a better career than either by a wide margin.

[pokerkai]

god damn red sox traitor /images/graemlins/smile.gif

but he is the greatest ever...grumble grumble

[mikech]

I think peak value vs. career value is an interesting matter to debate here. I agree Clemens has had an incredible career, better than Gibson's or Koufax's, but I don't think Clemens has ever been just "lights out." The best, most dominating, most utterly unhittable pitching seasons I've ever seen in my 20 years as a baseball fan were Gooden in '85, and Pedro in '99 and 2000. I wasn't alive to see Koufax and Gibson pitch so I'd also have to leave that for Andy to weigh in, but Pedro's '99 and '00 campaigns are most often compared to Koufax's mid-60s years; Clemens never came close to a season like theirs.

[JTG51]

I think peak value vs. career value is an interesting matter to debate here.

I agree. If I had to pick a pitcher in his prime to start a single game, Clemens is definitely not the guy.

Pedro's '00 was probably the best season by a starting pitcher ever and certainly blows away anything in my lifetime. But Clemens '97 season was very comparable to Gooden's '85, when you factor in how much better offenses were in '97 than '85

[Lazymeatball]

On a side note: Did Clemens deserve to win the Cy Young this year? I watched some guy on Sportscenter claim Randy Johnson deserved the title more despite playing for an abysmal team. As I am wholy unqualified to discuss this, I'd like to hear some opinions on the matter. Had the Big Unit won the Cy Young, he and Clemens would be tied at 6 a piece.

[bwana devil]

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but I don't think Clemens has ever been just "lights out."

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Look, I hate Clemens as much as the next Red Sox fan, but to deny that he had lights out years is to deny that the state of Iowa exits.

One example:
1990: 21-6; 1.93ERA; 228 Innings; 7 HR; 209 K

practically worthy of HOF for that year alone

[mmbt0ne]

I'd still take Warren Spahn over Clemens. He's a lefty though.
And yes, I think Johnson should've won the Cy Young. I believe he was 13-1 in games that he got more than 2 runs in support. With Houston's offense, he would've made a run at 25 wins, and still thrown a perfect game.

[nolanfan34]

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Nolan Ryan? I dunno.

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Nolan Ryan was one of my favorite players, but he's not even in the same league as Roger Clemens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure he was. American league, and National league. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Damn, why does Nolan always have to get brought into this?

FWIW, since it's so difficult to compare eras, I do think Clemens, when you look at his whole career, may be the best right hander of all-time. Koufax is probably the greatest lefty.

Gibson was tough, but he really only had a 10 year stretch of being a great pitcher, and you can argue that Clemens has been doing so, with a couple of bumps, for 19.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
On a side note: Did Clemens deserve to win the Cy Young this year? I watched some guy on Sportscenter claim Randy Johnson deserved the title more despite playing for an abysmal team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Clemens and Johnson were worthy. Good arguements can be made for both of them.

[M2d]

How about the man for whom the award is named? diferent eras, of course, but check out his stat lines:
511-316, 2.63 (3.62 lg era), 749 cg

[Q8offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
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Nolan Ryan? I dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nolan Ryan was one of my favorite players, but he's not even in the same league as Roger Clemens.

[/ QUOTE ]

No-Hitters? Ryan, 7-0.

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I don't think Clemens has ever been just "lights out."

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Look, I hate Clemens as much as the next Red Sox fan, but to deny that he had lights out years is to deny that the state of Iowa exits.

One example:
1990: 21-6; 1.93ERA; 228 Innings; 7 HR; 209 K

practically worthy of HOF for that year alone

[/ QUOTE ]
Terrible example, JTG's pick of 1997 was an order of magnitude better. In 1990, as you noted Clemens pitched 228 innings with 209 strikeouts, but he also gave up 193 hits and walked 54 batters. Fewer strikeouts than innings pitched, and quite a lot more baserunners than innings pitched.

If you call that "lights out" what would you call this: 213 innings, 313(!) K, 160 hits, 37 walks. That's 100 more Ks than IP, with less than 1 baserunner/inning.

Or this: 217 innings, 284 K, 128(!) hits, 32 walks. Still a ton more Ks than innings, and just 160 baserunners. In 11 fewer innings than Clemens' 1990 season, he allowed 87 fewer baserunners while striking out 75 more.

Calling Clemens' 1990 season "lights out" is an insult to Pedro. The only season you could say he was "lights out" was 1997, so no, Iowa does not exist.

[slavic]

Nolan Ryan was one of my favorite players, but he's not even in the same league as Roger Clemens.

The Ryan Express never put up the number of wins but that doesn't equate to bad pitching. Ryan played on some terrible teams and was one of the few pitchers to ever post a losing record while having the lowest ERA in the league. On any given night he could be near perfection and as he got older he just got better.

In the case of the Katy Rocket he needs to pitch another 5 or 6 years to step up to the league of Ryan.

[JTG51]

The Ryan Express never put up the number of wins but that doesn't equate to bad pitching.

Saying Ryan isn't in the same league as Clemens is hardly saying that Ryan was bad. He's one of the all time greats, just not nearly as great as Clemens.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
How about the man for whom the award is named? diferent eras, of course, but check out his stat lines:
511-316, 2.63 (3.62 lg era), 749 cg

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you nuts? How can you say that a 300 game loser is the greatest pitcher of all time. /images/graemlins/smile.gif