88's in BB

[asofel]

No reads. Fold this preflop?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Flop: (13 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

River: (10.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.50 BB, between CO, SB, Hero and MP1.</font>

[Festus22]

Checkraise the flop to put pressure on UTG and MP to face 2 bets cold and fold. You'll also get a lot more information from the CO if he 3-bets or not. Tough to go much beyond that since the hand would play out much differently.

[Joe Tall]

No way you are folding preflop, you flop a set and you are going to drag down a nice one, not only you could end up with the best hand unimproved.

If I was sure the CO would bet the flop when checked to, then I'd check-raise this flop and protect your vulnerable overpair. Not sure why you bet out into the PRF trapping players between; you don't need to build a pot here, you need to protect it.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
Checkraise the flop to put pressure on UTG and MP to face 2 bets cold and fold. You'll also get a lot more information from the CO if he 3-bets or not. Tough to go much beyond that since the hand would play out much differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen the flop checkraise mentioned much more these days for some reason...in general, is it used mainly to protect your hand? Are there other situations of a different nature that you'd also want to checkraise the flop?

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
No way you are folding preflop, you flop a set and you are going to drag down a nice one, not only you could end up with the best hand unimproved.

If I was sure the CO would bet the flop when checked to, then I'd check-raise this flop and protect your vulnerable overpair. Not sure why you bet out into the PRF trapping players between; you don't need to build a pot here, you need to protect it.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

thx Joe. I'm not quite sure either, looking back at it. I think I was worried about it being checked through and having someone hit their straight, given the board. But, I suppose its probably a good chance that the PFR will bet out with a flop like this as he probably had a good/better overpair.

[BottlesOf]

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Fold this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!

[asofel]

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Fold this preflop?

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WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!

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lol, that's what I would think too, I've just seen some posts recently from people advocating some (IMO) weak plays, and I wanted to check my sanity here. Thx for the confirmation /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[spamuell]

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Checkraise the flop to put pressure on UTG and MP to face 2 bets cold and fold. You'll also get a lot more information from the CO if he 3-bets or not. Tough to go much beyond that since the hand would play out much differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen the flop checkraise mentioned much more these days for some reason...in general, is it used mainly to protect your hand? Are there other situations of a different nature that you'd also want to checkraise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, this is why you would want to make the field face two cold, yeah.

For another cool use for it against good players, read Feeney's Inside the Poker Mind.

[BottlesOf]

Not sure what you mean, link to an example?

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure what you mean, link to an example?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't seem to find a specific post. I think the cards/situation were different enough to warrant a different move, ie, the pp was lower and there weren't so many callers in the pot.
I'm curious now: say you have pocket X's, and you're faced from Y position with a raise. How many callers do you need to call with what range of hands? I've heard some say at least 3 with most any pocket pair, dumping if you don't hit your set. I feel like this is a standard question probably with a standard answer, so maybe I should go reread SSHE.

[slogger]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell no! You're getting 10-to-1 immediate pot odds (likely to be 12 or 13-to-1 by the time the preflop action is closed) with a hand that needs only about 5 or 6-to-1 due to implied odds. Call with any pair here.

I like the flop bet because you're forcing players with overcards in between you and the pre-flop raiser to a tough decision, knowing that CO is likely to raise. I would call CO's raise on the flop. [Edit: second-guessing myself here - first thought was that a check-raise wouldn't protect the hand because the players in between would have the odds to call anyway, but now I think it may be better to go for it and hope that overcards fold.]

Bet that turn. You have an overpair and you picked up a gutshot straight draw. More often than not, nobody has a straight at this point (would need exactly a 3 or 87). Perhaps this is hindsight now, but you do not want to give a free card to any of your opponents here (over cards and straight draws).

Check the river unimproved, and call one bet.

Given the river action, it looks like CO did have that overpair, and SB may have hit a 9 or been slowplaying a straight, but I still think betting the turn is the correct play.

[Entity]

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Checkraise the flop to put pressure on UTG and MP to face 2 bets cold and fold. You'll also get a lot more information from the CO if he 3-bets or not. Tough to go much beyond that since the hand would play out much differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen the flop checkraise mentioned much more these days for some reason...in general, is it used mainly to protect your hand? Are there other situations of a different nature that you'd also want to checkraise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, this is why you would want to make the field face two cold, yeah.

For another cool use for it against good players, read Feeney's Inside the Poker Mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which section are you talking about in Feeney's book? I read it a while ago, but can't remember (would like to check it out).

Rob

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this is a standard question probably with a standard answer, so maybe I should go reread SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and you should try and eliminate such thinking. There are no "standarad answers." It depends on the exact pair, the number of opponents, who they are, and your position. You need some cold callers, but exactly how many depends on these above factors.

Postflop, you need to be able to make up the difference (implied odds) between your immediate pot odds of flopping a set (7.5:1) and the odds you are currently getting. Wll you be able to do this over the long term in your specific situation (Is it +EV?) Well, that's the question, now isn't it?

[asofel]

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Fold this preflop?

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Hell no! You're getting 10-to-1 immediate pot odds (likely to be 12 or 13-to-1 by the time the preflop action is closed) with a hand that needs only about 5 or 6-to-1 due to implied odds. Call with any pair here.

I like the flop bet because you're forcing players with overcards in between you and the pre-flop raiser to a tough decision, knowing that CO is likely to raise. I would call CO's raise on the flop.

Bet that turn. You have an overpair and you picked up a gutshot straight draw. More often than not, nobody has a straight at this point (would need exactly a 3 or 87). Perhaps this is hindsight now, but you do not want to give a free card to any of your opponents here (over cards and straight draws).

Check the river unimproved, and call one bet.

Given the river action, it looks like CO did have that overpair, and SB may have hit a 9 or been slowplaying a straight, but I still think betting the turn is the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

thx slogger...as i mentioned to JBB, i wanted to make sure i was correct in my thinking as i've seen some weak posts/advice at times. Good reads too:


Results:
MP1 has 3h 7d (straight, seven high).
CO has Jc Jd (one pair, jacks).
SB has 2c 9c (two pair, nines and twos).
Hero has 8s 8h (one pair, eights).
Outcome: MP1 wins 14.50 BB.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
If I was sure the CO would bet the flop when checked to, then I'd check-raise this flop and protect your vulnerable overpair. Not sure why you bet out into the PRF trapping players between; you don't need to build a pot here, you need to protect it.

[/ QUOTE ]

he has two players to his left and two to his right. doesn't a flop bet make more sense since CO may not bet overcards with 5 opponents? it puts pressure on the two players to his left, since they know CO is the PFR and may dump overcards fearing a raise from him. if CO raises, then the other two have pressure to fold as well.

given the hero's bet and CO's raise, is it better to 3bet the flop or bet the turn on a safe card?

[asofel]

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[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this is a standard question probably with a standard answer, so maybe I should go reread SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and you should try and eliminate such thinking. There are no "standarad answers." It depends on the exact pair, the number of opponents, who they are, and your position. You need some cold callers, but exactly how many depends on these above factors.


[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely; I shouldn't have phrased things that way. I know there isn't a magical formula to just plug things into, or a 'one-line-fits-all' solution. I think I sometimes let myself fall into playing similar situations in a similar way , which can lead to incorrect choices and faulty reasoning.

[ QUOTE ]
Postflop, you need to be able to make up the difference (implied odds) between your immediate pot odds of flopping a set (7.5:1) and the odds you are currently getting. Wll you be able to do this over the long term in your specific situation (Is it +EV?) Well, that's the question, now isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed it is. Thx for the points JBB.

[spamuell]

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Checkraise the flop to put pressure on UTG and MP to face 2 bets cold and fold. You'll also get a lot more information from the CO if he 3-bets or not. Tough to go much beyond that since the hand would play out much differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen the flop checkraise mentioned much more these days for some reason...in general, is it used mainly to protect your hand? Are there other situations of a different nature that you'd also want to checkraise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, this is why you would want to make the field face two cold, yeah.

For another cool use for it against good players, read Feeney's Inside the Poker Mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which section are you talking about in Feeney's book? I read it a while ago, but can't remember (would like to check it out).

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Hiya Rob,

Essay on Page 160 - Countering a Good Reader.