hmph

[Jason Strasser]

Mediocre eh? 200 sng party.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

UTG+1 (t1410)
MP1 (t855)
MP2 (t3285)
CO (t800)
Button (t975)
SB (t1095)
Hero (t925)
UTG (t655)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t40</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t30, Hero calls t25.

Flop: (t120) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets t75</font>, SB folds, Hero calls t75.

Turn: (t270) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: (t270) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t125</font>

[adanthar]

Awesome. You fold if he bets the turn, though, right?

[chill888]

It's OK - seen worse,

Personally i'd prefer a bet on the turn with a 4 flush board - if you are going to bluff.

If he doesn't have a club he is far more likely to fold when facing four than when facing five. People hate to fold made boards - eg 45678 - and will often call little bets.

[stupidsucker]

I have a lot to learn before moving up to the 100s.

I admit I would play this much differently. First off, I probably fold preflop. I understand that by doing so I may be folding away chip EV, but the position is bad, and even if I flop top pair my kicker sucks. I need more then top pair to play after the flop. (at least top pair plush a draw)

this flop comes and I fold to the bet. I just dont want to get involved.

Is betting the river here really worth it? I dont put him on a big flush card in pocket if he even has one at all, but isnt this a case where you are only going to get called if you are beat? If you check you have a good chance to split the pot.

I would deffenatly not bet the turn, its just asking to for him to go over the top of you because that Ac is not out yet. The river Ace clubs makes me feel a lot better about the board then any other club.

[mart_ph]

I completely agree with stupidsucker on this hand. Could someone explain the logic behind the other reasoning?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Is betting the river here really worth it? I dont put him on a big flush card in pocket if he even has one at all, but isnt this a case where you are only going to get called if you are beat? If you check you have a good chance to split the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If strassa has a club he will probably check the turn. The other guy will check behind with a high club or no club, but will probably bet a medium club unless he tries a very ill advised bluff.

The river ace greatly lessens that chance of a high club. Sure, Villain might call with pocket tens and the Tc...but there are an awful lot of split hands he folds there and even a couple of winners.

I like this heads up bet and have used it before with good results at the 50's.

(Edit: I think the PF call is OK for what's essentially a minraise. The flop call is kinda marginal but the turn card and Villain's bet should determine where you stand.)

[ThorGoT]

Good move. But what do you do if opponent reraises? Put differently, what percentage of the time do you call a 125 reraise (250 total)?

[J.A.Sucker]

Fold preflop. Give up on the flop. Fire on the turn. Give up on the river. That's how I would have played it had I somehow been forced to play the hand. Bad position, deepish money, and the structure of these tourneys makes these hands killers.

[stupidsucker]

I agree with the turn and river actions. It is the preflop and flop actions that get to me. This certainly cant be the flop you are looking for when you come in with QJs.

I see this as a better line for a cash game then a tourney game. I also am saying this assuming I am wrong. I just want to know why I am wrong.

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a lot to learn before moving up to the 100s.

I admit I would play this much differently. First off, I probably fold preflop. I understand that by doing so I may be folding away chip EV, but the position is bad, and even if I flop top pair my kicker sucks. I need more then top pair to play after the flop. (at least top pair plush a draw)

this flop comes and I fold to the bet. I just dont want to get involved.

Is betting the river here really worth it? I dont put him on a big flush card in pocket if he even has one at all, but isnt this a case where you are only going to get called if you are beat? If you check you have a good chance to split the pot.

I would deffenatly not bet the turn, its just asking to for him to go over the top of you because that Ac is not out yet. The river Ace clubs makes me feel a lot better about the board then any other club.

[/ QUOTE ]


No, you probably don't have too much to learn.

Personally, i think this is an interesting hand because almost every street is worth a touch of debate and is opponent driven. But to your point, you can't go much wrong just plain avoiding this hand.

On the other hand, it's not a bad hand and you can get in cheaply. Next, I HATE flush boards and avoid them like the plague. BUT .. they are great bluffing boards. When the board is 4 clubs on the turn.... well the odds are usually that your opponent doesn't have a club (unless he shown some real interest in the hand). It's often worth a stab/bet.....but almost never worth going broke on.

Finally, when the board is a made hand after the river, betting dynamics are always interesting. I wouldn't have bet here usually..... but against certain very tight opponents. Why not?

Interesting hand. And yes I would have usually folded or called preflop and shutdown after the flop ... but again I think there are lots of close decisions here. As always, knowing your opponents is worth $$$$'s.

my 2 cents and gl

[pshreck]

I think the real reason this is bad, is quite often he will call with absolutely nothing. Almost always he will call if he has a mid club (obviously above the 4 of clubs). Ofcourse, if he has the nuts, he will pop you right back and of course you will fold.

Your play would be great if you think he was folding without a club most of the time. I think a player would call that bet and play the board quite often. However, Im assuming they are doing this 60% of the time (considering your bet wasn't even pot sized). I could be wrong and it could be as low as 25%, in which place your play is closer to +chip EV.

Still I don't like it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[stripsqueez]

closing the action i can bear playing pre-flop but i like fold

no way i put T75 in on the flop - i plan to get to the serious bit of the game with enough chips to scare

if i did put my chips in on the flop then bluffing the turn looks auto - surely this was why i put my chips in on the flop ? - the river looks like a freebie

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the real reason this is bad, is quite often he will call with absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

A regular at this level who is aware of chip value can't call a bet like this without a club. He's putting in 125 into a pot with 400 in it, but the pot effectively only has 200 because when he's right it'll be split. Therefore, in order for the call to be right, Strassa has to be bluffing something like 40% of the time.

This is also why I never call here and have probably been bluffed out of a few pots this way. Hmmm....

[Jason Strasser]

SS,

I don't think you have a lot to learn. This spot is very marginal, as you can probably tell. I tend to call preflop here, because I have a hand that isn't dominated too often, and because that small preflop raise in late position often is a big hand from this opponent.

I don't think my preflop decision is that bad though. On the flop, well, I was thinking 2 things. The first was that I was ahead, and the second was that I would look for an opportunity to bluff if the 4-flush made it. This can not work out so well sometimes, which is why I agree with a lot of you that my flop play is crappy.

This is not my normal line. I just try to mix it up here and there, and this is what sometimes happens.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

Chill,

I agree, this hand is crappy.

Anyhow, I disagree with betting the turn. If I had any club, but the ace, that I felt like showing down, I'd tend to check the turn. I'd also check the ace, too, sometimes.

I also think that a 45678 board is a lot different than 5 clubs. I highly doubt I'm getting a call here from a hand that doesn't involve a club.

-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

On the river? If he reraises me I fold, I dont like calling with the only chance of splitting.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the real reason this is bad, is quite often he will call with absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

A regular at this level who is aware of chip value can't call a bet like this without a club. He's putting in 125 into a pot with 400 in it, but the pot effectively only has 200 because when he's right it'll be split. Therefore, in order for the call to be right, Strassa has to be bluffing something like 40% of the time.

This is also why I never call here and have probably been bluffed out of a few pots this way. Hmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

A regular at this level also has to realize that good players often bluff 4 flush and 5 flush boards, because it can easily push opponents off nothing hands or a big hands (trips or 2 pair that are now nothing).

They key number is how often is the average player folding to this bet. I don't think it's often enough for the bet to be good.

[Jason Strasser]

Preflop is not a bad call. Surely, given a read on an opponent, you'll cut me a little slack and say that I'm justified calling here pf?

The flop is the worst part about this hand. However, typically if this opponent had an overpair or a strong hand that didn't involve a club, they would bet big on this flop. I figured on the flop I would be ahead a portion of the time, and I could make up for the times I was behind by stealing the pot if a club comes.

-Jason

Firing on the turn is not what I would do if I had a club, so I didn't see any point firing on this turn.

[Jason Strasser]

Pshreck,

I guarantee the average 200 player folds this river without a club. It's that simple.

-Jason

[stupidsucker]

Good post. I am always willing to learn. I can see why mixing it up is important for yourself and just for EV at the $200 level.

I will continue to fold this preflop 99% of the time for a while. I would rather work on the basics of winning at the upper limits before working on the flare.

I am still 100% ITM player at the $100s though. with a 459% roi, and I dont want to hear shiit about my sample size of 1 not being enough! I will be sticking to the 30s for a while due to BR limitations.

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is not a bad call. Surely, given a read on an opponent, you'll cut me a little slack and say that I'm justified calling here pf?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll cut you some slack, but it's cutting your profits more. Trust me. I'm right.

As for the turn, firing is exactly what I'd do against many internet players, who love to raise all-in or fold as their binary choices. If I actually have the hand, then they can bluff the money off to me, but if they don't I may win anyway. With your hand, you've made the pot big enough that you should take a hack at it. Once it goes check-check on the turn, just check and call his inevitable less than pot bet. This saves you money if you're beaten, which is your prime concern when you have a POS hand and you've gone too far with it.

[Jason Strasser]

he folded