Getting Raised Out of Pots

Sometimes I find myself in an Omaha-8 ring game where one of the players is playing about half of the hands dealt, and is raising before the flop twice or more as often as calling. Of course you obviously love to have someone who provides action like this in the game.


Except in one particular session, the game was otherwise loose and passive and the player in question seemed to be playing well after the flop.


I moved to his immediate left, with the idea of only playing good hands when he raised and possibly re-raising with certain good hands (hands where I wanted to limit the field), but playing a bit looser (marginal hands) when he didn’t raise. The obvious effect of his play and my counter-strategy was that (with marginal hands) I often found myself raised out of pots I otherwise would have won.


Another effect was that when I had a nice drawing hand after the flop, two thirds of the time (about how often he was raising) his raises had served to limit the field, which was not at all what I wanted with a nice drawing hand.


The guy wasn’t doing well, in spite of his excellent post-flop play. But he was screwing up my game too. His pre-flop style of play was costing us both money.


It seemed as though tactics that worked best against most of the players in the game did not work well against the pre-flop raiser, while tactics that worked best against the pre-flop raiser did not work well against the other players in the game.


I was stumped as to how best to cope.


Anybody have any suggestions?


Buzz

do what you did and play less aggressively. or you can move across the table from him and get to see what happens before you get involved. this way yoou can play hands that are multiway or isolate for headup.

One thing that works for me when there is a raising maniac is to just assume that I am now playing a higher stakes game and adjust my hand selection accordingly. That way, I am not pushed of my "marginal" hands that I want to see the flop for 1 small bet.


Most importantly, this approach helps me keep a level emotional and mental state. I find that if my inner dialogue is saying "on no, not another raise from the maniac" I wind up folding my winners, playing my losers and drawing when there are not proper pot odds. By mentally adjusting to a higher stake, I actually appreciate the maniacs raises and wind up playing my winners and folding my losers /images/smile.gif

I moved to his immediate left, with the idea of only playing good hands when he raised and possibly re-raising with certain good hands


Usually I move to his right. That way I can count the callers to his raises and use him to bet my hands for me. I seldom do much reraising BTF in these situations however. I doesn't do much to limit the field, and sends my hand a little too early.


Did your re-raises slow him down at all? Some maniacs will come off their game when they see they are being used by a good player.


but playing a bit looser (marginal hands) when he didn’t raise


This is OK if you play well after the flop. Marginal hands can flop monsters, but can also induce chasing.

if you sit on his left you can't raise him because you will be forcing eveyone out.


if you sit to his right you can let him bet for you and check/raise the whole table or limp/reraise at will.

Ray - Thanks for the suggestions. Very helpful.


Buzz

Iblucky4u2 - "By mentally adjusting to a higher stake, I actually appreciate the maniacs raises and wind up playing my winners and folding my losers."


Excellent suggestion. It occurs to me now that I might have been frustrated because this guy was screwing up an otherwise good game for me - while not even gaining anything for himself. As I think about it now, I probably was on tilt and lost proper focus by paying too much attention to this one player.


Your suggestion is appreciated and will help me keep the proper mental focus.


Thanks.


Buzz

Mike - Thanks. Yes, I can see sitting on his right. Already I'm formulating in my mind how to play in that position.


I also like Ray Zee's suggestion of moving across the table from him. As I think about it, I have done well sitting across the table from maniacs.


At the time I thought about a strategy to try and then I faithfully tried it (for about six or seven hours) but it was unsatisfactory.


Thanks for your suggestion.


Buzz

Mack - You asked, 'Did your re-raises slow him down at all?"


My raises had quite the opposite effect. They induced him to make a third mistake (his first two, IMHO, were that he was (1) playing too many trash hands and (2) raising with too many trash hands). His third mistake was that he inevitably capped when I re-raised. Some of my opponents are what I think of as “macho” re-raisers. Of course I love to play against these “macho” opponents (who want to show they are the boss). But except for re-re-raising on the first betting round with virtually anything when I re-raised, this guy didn’t at all fit the stereotype of what I think of as a “macho” raiser. That is, after the first betting round he played shrewdly, IMHO.


However, if he was playing half the hands and I was playing one eighth of the hands, then I was only playing one fourth of the time when he raised. It was something like that. And then when I was playing a hand I was usually not raising.


It was an otherwise loose, passive game - a dream game. If his raise had the effect of cutting the number of players from seven or eight to five or six, then my double raise would cut the number of players to three or four. Something like that. Thus putting in a double raise did not have the effect of isolating me against this guy. Instead, putting in a double raise only had the effect of cutting out a couple of players who otherwise might chase to the river with second or third best hands.


Thus I was only raising with hands where I wanted to limit the field. For example, with a hand like As2s3d4h, I wasn't re-raising before the flop because I wanted to keep everyone possible in the hand. And with a hand like that you still have to hit the flop! (Flop 9d9s8d with As2s3d4h against three or four opponents and you have a non-playable situation, at least for me).


At any rate, thanks for your suggestions.


Buzz

"Thus I was only raising with hands where I wanted to limit the field. For example, with a hand like As2s3d4h, I wasn't re-raising before the flop because I wanted to keep everyone possible in the hand"


This is why sitting on his right is the best place to be IMO. You can limp reraise with your A234 type hands and trap the entire table for 3 or 4 bets instead of 2. This is for every street, not just preflop.


Then when you want to narrow the field, you can raise with the expectation that he will reraise for you. You win both ways.

Reponse to Buzz


I feel most comfortable when I sit maybe about opposite a semi-maniac player. Or if the maniac is raising too much, then it might be better to change games. The reason being (I feel): I have been in games (fairly good games) where a maniac raised essentially every hand. This constant raise pressure was driving out most of the average to weak players and resulting in very low odds when I'm drawing to a good low or scoop hand in OM8.


Over the years I have heard many opinions about were to sit relative to various types of players, i.e., good bad, or indifferent players.... I feel there are many different attributes that players possess, so I like to sit opposite them when I'm trying to figure them out.... Shifting gears:


The Paradise Poker Internet lobby shows the pertinent variables for each game that they offer. These are(based on a 10 or 20 game running average): The (1) game type; (2)Stakes; (3)# of players in game; (4) Average pot size; and (5) Number of players per flop. Of course I like to play in a full game so that the blinds don't come around too fast. I feel:


The best games are where the average final pot size is over 8 big bets, and the average number of players seeing the flop is over 50%. Sometimes it's hard to locate games like this. Most of the bigger & intermediate games may have average pots of 7 or more big bets but the number of players seeing the flop is relatively low -- say 35% .... I'm a ring game player and games with a lot of raises and few players cramps my style, and makes me feel uncomfortable. I want to be the guy doing the raising.


like Buzz sez: "just my opinion...."

If his raise had the effect of cutting the number of players from seven or eight to five or six, then my double raise would cut the number of players to three or four.


Very interesting. I've never played in a game that maintained conditions like these for more than 45 minutes or an hour, tops. If a game like this went on for four or five hours, I wouldn't loosen up that much, thinking I could get the money playing premium hands.


How many players were in at the end of each hand? If it was three or more, my guess is that you had to show down pretty near to the nuts for low. Were you reraising with primarily high hands?

I like iblucky4u2's suggestions, too. It's very easy to get in a game like this, see the enormous pots, see that you are one of the best players at the table, and lose perspective. You still have to get cards. You still have to make the correct plays. I can get in a game like this and assume that I somehow "deserve" the money, when the only thing I deserve is a chance to play for it.

Mike - "This is why sitting on his right is the best place to be IMO. You can limp reraise with your A234 type hands and trap the entire table for 3 or 4 bets instead of 2. This is for every street, not just preflop.

Then when you want to narrow the field, you can raise with the expectation that he will reraise for you. You win both ways."


Very clear. Thanks.


Buzz

"Very interesting. I've never played in a game that maintained conditions like these for more than 45 minutes or an hour, tops. If a game like this went on for four or five hours, I wouldn't loosen up that much, thinking I could get the money playing premium hands."


Mac - The semi-maniac was ahead for a while - way ahead - several racks. Then he gradually lost his winnings and started dipping into his pocket. His stack of chips would begin to increase, and then he would go broke again and reach into his pocket to buy a new rack.


I got to the casino at about 5:00 p.m. and left at about 5:00 a.m. Not sure exactly how long I was at this particular table - but at least from an hour or so before midnight until I left to beat the morning L.A. freeway traffic. The game stayed full the whole time and there was another $3-$6 Omaha game going as well.


"How many players were in at the end of each hand? If it was three or more, my guess is that you had to show down pretty near to the nuts for low."


It varied. But yes, at a full $3-$6 table nobody is folding A-2-X-X before the flop and not many are folding A-3-X-X before the flop - and there usually is at least one of these hands dealt (and with back-up protection).


"Were you reraising with primarily high hands?"


Not exactly. My re-raises are based a good deal on what I expect individual opponents might do when faced with a triple bet (both on this and subsequent betting rounds), rather than on the cards I hold. For example, some opponents, but not many, are cowed by a triple bet before the flop and will allow me two free cards, yet will stubbornly not fold. Whether I'll raise or not also depends on my position relative to the button.


Rightly or wrongly, my preflop raises are not often value bets. Of course from some positions I'll raise with some hands as value bets. If all that isn't complicated enough for you already, I sometimes raise with some hands and sometimes limp with them, keying off the first card dealt to me for randomness.


The semi-maniac was at the table before I arrived and was still there after I left. Most of the other seats had various individuals in them as the night wore on. The game stayed full often with someone joining with a rack of higher value chips as though a higher limit hold 'em or stud game had broken and these players still wanted some Omaha-8 action.


I don't generally raise in a ring game before the flop with a high only hand like KQJT or KKQQ, preferring to see the flop first with these hands.

I might raise before the flop in a tournament with one of these hands, but basically it would be as an attempted blind steal rather than as a value bet.


I might raise before the flop with a dog like As5hThTd (or worse) if I thought raising might get me the blinds or might get me one-on-one a particular suspicious/stubborn-type opponent holding a random hand.


Buzz

Hi Carl - That was pretty interesting when I made that pre-flop raise with A-4-5-K-suited and you, sitting at the same table, told me you recognized my play from a post of mine. I wondered for a moment why I had been so foolish as to post an insight into my play. But there are also other hands with which I would make the raise. In addition, once the play is made in a live game, the cat is out of the bag anyhow, and not many others against whom I play read these posts, so that I don't think I give up much by posting here. And by posting I get great suggestions to improve my game. Some times I already had previously come across the information offered in the suggestion, but simply hadn't focused enough on it with respect to my own game. Reading an idea as advice from another poster significantly reinforces the concept for me.


"I feel most comfortable when I sit maybe about opposite a semi-maniac player."


Ray Zee also suggested this. On reflection, I also feel comforatable sitting opposite a semi-maniac.


"Or if the maniac is raising too much, then it might be better to change games."


Yes. However, I didn't want to give up. My prime motivation is to master the game.


"This constant raise pressure was driving out most of the average to weak players and resulting in very low odds when I'm drawing to a good low or scoop hand in OM8."


Exactly!


"so I like to sit opposite them when I'm trying to figure them out...."


I like that idea. I also like the idea of sitting to their right. But sometimes sitting to their left has worked out well for me.


"The best games are where the average final pot size is over 8 big bets, and the average number of players seeing the flop is over 50%. Sometimes it's hard to locate games like this."


Yes. In a casino too.


"I want to be the guy doing the raising."


I know exactly how you feel. /images/smile.gif


Thanks Carl,


Buzz

Thanks to Buzz & all for their responses and perspsectives. This post resulted in one of the most thougthful and informative threads I have seen for O/8.

phat mack is right here. thats what i see all the time. in these games players either end up playing too tight and not making any money or playing too tight and playing the wrong type of hands. or they lose perspective and play badly and complain that they always lose in these games.