VP$IP 21%. What do I play that you don't?

[fourpin]

Thanks to bisonbison for his player rating post.
I am trying to increase my BB/100 by "earning" a moneybag icon. My current VP$IP is 20.8%. I Notice most winning players are at about 18% or so (many claim 15% or lower). Can anyone offer ideas on how to use Poker Tracker to determine which hands I shouldn't be playing?

I am currently earning almost 6 BB/100 at $.25/$.50 holdem over 9000 hands played.
I know I could save 2 or 3 percent by not playing hands like Kxs or stealing as often, but with 45%-50% seeing the flop there seem to be alot of opportunities that would be missed.

Thanks in advance for your ideas.

[sin808]

the 20% guideline is not set in stone. nano limits and shorthanded games (as examples) offer more profitable opportunities with speculative hands. My VP$IP has always hovered around 20-22%. As the skill level of your opponents increases those opportunities tend to go away. I'd say anything under 23 or so is probably reasonable (standard disclaimer goes here). Just be sure to adjust your starting requirements to the texture of the table and not worry so much about numbers. You could just be on a good run of cards too.

[fourpin]

Thanks for the reply.
I do notice I am at about 20% VP$IP when I play .50/1.00. Maybe the lower see the flop % shows me fewer opportunities. As for a good run of cards, 9000 hands is a small sample but I am working to see it continue.

[Ajax410]

When I started playing .5/1 limit, I too struggled to get my VPIP under the coveted 20% marker. However, as I moved up to 1/2, and then 2/4, it became progressively easier to see why anything above 20% is really not optimal.

Speculative hands, specicifically suited connectors, one-gappers, aces, and kings, became less valuable from EP. Why is this so? Because these hands are not that great in small pots - if someone behind you raises, you will likely face a fraction of the field, and your hand doesn't hold up. So, as aggression becomes more matter-of-fact at tables you play at, the number of hands that are +EV go way down. I don't consider myself a significantly tighter player, but my VPIP, which was at 21% on a consistent basis, now hovers closer to 15-16%.

Hope this helps.

Ajax

[helpmeout]

lol dont worry about trying to get some stupid icon from bisons player ratings.

Having a VPIP of 15-20% doesnt make you a winning player and it is not really important.

Anyone with a VPIP of near 15% playing in loose games is playing way too tight.

If you are playing $2/$4 or below then a VPIP of 20+ is fine.

My VPIP for 50c/$1 was almost 25%. In these loose games you should be playing low pocket pairs, medium suited connectors even high suited cards like Q8s K7s Axs UTG because you will likely get enough callers for them to be profitable.

If your post flop play is good then these hands are worth playing.

When you move up limits or play in tighter games then your VPIP should become much lower because these weak multiway hands are no longer playable in early and even middle position.

BTW if you are earning 6bb/100 over 9k hands then it is time to move up.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW if you are earning 6bb/100 over 9k hands then it is time to move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, small sample size and you dont know what his bankroll is. although there is a decent chance this is true.

[helpmeout]

small sample size my ass, 540BB over 9k hands says he is a winner at that limit

[SCfuji]

you can be a winning player with a VPIP of 25 if you play well enough after the flop. 22% is fine. ive had a few sessions where i was at 21 for a while and it didnt seem to hurt me at all. one thing i do like to keep in order is that i am tighter up front than in the back (stfu with your jokes). if you sort your VPIP by position in your poker tracker you should be highest in the SB and button and looser the further away you go from the button. the vpip from the big blind should be closer to that of late position.

im pretty sure that we play similar hands. Axs, any pocket pair (circumstancial), big suited cards... try tightening up on your AXs cards up front. Try to keep the X>=8 in EP and loosen up your standards as you get closer to the button. Ajax and I discussed this a couple weeks ago and you should feel more comfortable playing them if you have better kickers. Just be wary of the A/x in a raised pot - you are mainly looking for the flush or straight (if it is possible).

KXs is a hand that you should only play completing the SB, BB in a multi multi multi-way pot and from the button or 1 off the button.

[SCfuji]

debatable. he definitely should try a few sessions of 1/2 and see how he fairs but i dont agree that it should be an auto-move up...

[helpmeout]

How is it debatable? If you are up 540BB at a limit over 9k hands you are beating it easily.

If it was something like 3BB/100 then obviously not the same because it is a weaker winrate where a bad streak would seriously dent his BR.

If he went on a 150BB downslide at his current rate he'd still be well ahead.

He is playing 25c/50c so a move to 50c/$1 should be his next step (I assume you misread).

[zuluking]

At 10k hands, my BB rate was 5.85, 5k hands later it has slipped to 5.03, this at the .50/1 level. It is NOT an automatic move-up for him, although I would tend to agree that he is PROBABLY ready.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
How is it debatable? If you are up 540BB at a limit over 9k hands you are beating it easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had a 10k hand run (at 1/2) at a net winrate of 0. Does that make me a bad player. No. I've had a 10k hand run (at 1/2) at a net winrate of 7.5BB/100. Does that make me a good player. No. Runs happen. It just so happens that during my break even run, I had 3 bad downswings, and during the good 10k run I had about 5 good upswings. Variance happens.

I know that there have been a couple players (2+2ers) I've been in contact with in the Atlanta area that have had extraordinary runs of good fortune only to build a false sense of confidence and hit their first downswing at 2/4 or 3/6 and almost quit playing because of it (a QTs hand comes to mind). These downswings are much more dramatic due to the negative reinforcements when bad play is rewarded with big pots during the good swings.

10k hands is not a lot. Yes, there's a good chance that a great winrate (9BB/100) is a sign that he's ready to move up, but when I see a winrate like this I just think it's the cards.

[helpmeout]

Slipping to 5.03 is real tragic I guess you should play another 10k hands incase it drops to 4.5

Maybe he should wait until he has 100k hands and 5000BB just to make sure.

If you have a good winrate move up, if you cant adapt to the new environment then move back down.

[helpmeout]

Its 6bb/100 at 25c/50c its far from great.

If I had a run of breaking even over 10k hands I wouldnt be using variance as an excuse I'd be looking at my game. If I run bad over 500 hands I look at my game. (I dont play more than 2tables so I expect my winrate to be good)

Variance is too often used as an excuse on these boards.

If you don't know whether you are playing well or not you need to do more study and pay attention more instead of playing 8 tables at once.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Its 6bb/100 at 25c/50c its far from great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[ QUOTE ]
If I had a run of breaking even over 10k hands I wouldnt be using variance as an excuse I'd be looking at my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh... I did analyze my play... I reviewed 3 different sections in that 10k hand run (each over 1k hands). I played fine. I shared a bunch of the losing hands with other 2+2ers in my area. I posted some of the questionable hands. I made mistakes, but playing better would not have significantly changed the outcome.

So, you are to have the 2+2 authors (and other authors) re-write their books to say that bad runs can only last 100 hands and not 10k. There have been a few authors that say that you can run a few months of break or losing poker. Ahh... what do they know...

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't know whether you are playing well or not you need to do more study and pay attention more instead of playing 8 tables at once.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... if I count the number of tables on my monitor that I'm playing it would be..... 2. More than 25% of the time, it's only 1.

And as for the studying, you have no idea how much I have dedicated to learning this game... I'm an Engineer by trade. I never studied as much in college as I've studied to learn this game in the past 18 months, and I still dedicate at least 2 hours a day to re-reading books because I still have so much to learn. But at least I recognize that about my game. So yeah... that's a good one.

Let me also quote something that you wrote in the SS forum this morning:

[ QUOTE ]
4500 is a small sample size what are your results in lower limits? Are your $2/$4 results similar?

A BB of 4+ doesnt prove anything unless you have played a lot of hands. A significant downswing like 100-150BB would put a big dent in that so it really doesnt mean that much.


[/ QUOTE ]

4.5k.... 10k.... where do you draw the line? I don't understand. You're saying that 5k hands isn't nearly enough... but 10k hands more than proves the point. And you don't feel that it's possible to have more than one significant downswing in 10k hands? That's good.

BTW... variance is real, and your choice of not accepting this either means one of two things, you're sick of hearing about it, or you've never experienced it.

My winrate at 2/4 (over 18k hands) was 5.4 BB/100. And while I can't pick out a section that I was break-even for 10k hands, I can pick out a section that my winrate over 10k hands was less that 1BB/100. I can also pick out a 3k hand run that my winrate was over 12BB/100. What does this tell me? Not a thing.

[Marquis]

I don't know where you're playing, but I dont think lowering your vpip to under 20% at .25/.50 games will increase your winrate; it will lower it. On Party .5/1, the smiley face icon, as a group, wins much more than the moneybag does, at least in my database.

[Cardzy]

Ok, without reading all 25 replies or however is already posted I will reply. The reason you are over 20% may not have to do with WHAT cards you play, but rather WHERE (as in what position) you are willing to play certain hands from.

Example would be something like K9s. I toss it away in early position every time, I will most likely toss it away in mid position 80% of the time. Maybe you don't.

If you want to tighten up, keep an eye on what your playing in certain positions. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
Example would be something like K9s. I toss it away in early position every time, I will most likely toss it away in mid position 80% of the time. Maybe you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you shouldn't, IMO.

[nyc999]

I think a 21% VPIP is nothing to worry about in low limits. You have a good BB/100 right now, and maybe you've had a good run of cards. I had a 20.5% VPIP for awhile, and had a great win rate. Then the cards went cold, my BB/100 went down, and now I'm around a 19.5% VPIP.

I also think its important to evaluate the cards you play by each position. Sometimes cards that are played in MP3 shouldn't be played in MP1, etc.

However, if you continue to stay at that win rate, I wouldn't worry at all. Keep in mind that as you move up, your VPIP will probably decrease a little bit.

[MarkL444]

none of us are saying that he shouldnt. im sure i would if i was him. its just that your original statement of:

[ QUOTE ]
BTW if you are earning 6bb/100 over 9k hands then it is time to move up.


[/ QUOTE ]

is crazy.

[Peter Harris]

as many have said before, at .5/1, sLA-A is the way to be!

I was at 16% pip for my first 6k hands at .5/1. Now, after 9k, i'm up to 19.4 and winning at the same rate. You can afford to be slightly loose as long as you are good postflop.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Sarge85]

This....
[ QUOTE ]

I am currently earning almost 6 BB/100 at $.25/$.50 holdem over 9000 hands played.


[/ QUOTE ]

is much more important than this...

[ QUOTE ]
My current VP$IP is 20.8%. I Notice most winning players are at about 18% or so (many claim 15% or lower)

[/ QUOTE ]

How good will you feel if your VS$IP drops to 19.00% and your win rate drops a proportinate the same percentage.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[DMBFan23]

my VPIP at .5/1 hovers between 19 and 21, so you probably play a smaller suited connector one position earlier than me some of the time, which is probably ok.

The main thing to focus on is WHY you're playing certain hands...

"I limped 22 UTG because the table was routinely 5 to the flop for one bet, and they'd call to the river if I hit"

"I played 87s on the button because I had 4 limpers before me"

"I folded KTo on the button because I had 5 limpers before me"

etc...if you're playing hands for the right reasons, you can add in some extra hands +EV at passive tables, and you still might not play all that differently from some of the smaller VP$IP players...

That is, you both may have the same policy of raising AJo first in and mucking to a raise before you, but he may more often run into the raise before him at a higher limit, where as you may not, and this would inflate your VP$IP, although you're still both "tight"

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
(a QTs hand comes to mind

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, Eric.

But seriously, I have to agree with you here.

To guy that's arguing with Eric: If anecdotal evidence is valid, you can just look at me. I crushed the .5/1 for something like 8BB/100 for about 7k hands. I knew I wasn't this good. (Just ask Eric). About that time, I hit a huge downswing. About -4BB/100, I was missing all my draws, AK didn't hit, etc. I know this isn't a true reflector of my ability.

In sum? Variance = real.

[Frank A. Adrian]

[ QUOTE ]
etc...if you're playing hands for the right reasons, you can add in some extra hands +EV at passive tables, and you still might not play all that differently from some of the smaller VP$IP players...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key. I try to play at passive tables (for obvious reasons). As such, I tend to play more loosely. When I hit a table that's tighter, I tighten up. When I get heads up against a tight player, I might back down a bit quicker. But because I try to find the loose tables, my PT VP$IP of 23% or so doesn't seem all that bad to me. I can live with both the PT smiley face when the fishin's good and with the additional variance when the fishin's not so good. I'll shoot for PT's money bag icon when I move up to higher limits.

My main concern isn't that I'm playing badly (for the tables I'm at, I'm pretty sure that's not the case), but that I might be developing bad habits that will come back to bite me in the hiney as I move up. With any luck, since I'm aware of the issue, I will adjust my game accordingly as I progress.

[SomethingClever]

I really don't understand people that are having a hard time tightening up preflop. Why try to play difficult hands out of position when you don't have to?

I don't try to justify my calls. I just consider whether I'll be happy with them if it's raised behind me, and how I'll proceed on various flops.

Pick your spots. Pay attention to table texture. Don't limp with KJo in EP.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't limp with KJo in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

True dat.

BTW you need to bring back Mr T. (More of an authority figure).

[Greg J]

Two questions:

1) What is yr pf raise %'ge?
2) How much do you cold call preflop?

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. T

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno... Jetfire here is pretty imposing as well, and he's pointing a rocket blaster straight at you!

[helpmeout]

You dont see the difference of 4bb/100 over 4500 hands compared to 6bb/100 over 9k. Not to mention that the guy was planning to move to $5/$10 not up to 50c/$1.

How can you compare lol 180BB vs 540BB yeah thats pretty similar. A bad run wont hugely affect the 540BB guy while the 180BB guys winrate could become breakeven.

Bad runs can run a long time but its way more likely the person is just playing bad.

[fourpin]

my PFR% is at 8.7 ( up from about 6% since I restarted my PT database).

Cold calling raises was a huge mistake I am eliminating thanks to the SSH book.
For monday and Tuesday (almost 600 hands) I cold called raises twice. Both times from the button. both times had 4 players in not counting the blinds. Both hands were small pairs.

[EliteNinja]

I'm at 22.4% 3-tabling 0.50-1.00.
6BB/100hands 7000 hands.
Bankroll $990

Should I move up yet? Or should I try to lower my VP$IP just a smidgen?

[Sent]

[ QUOTE ]
You dont see the difference of 4bb/100 over 4500 hands compared to 6bb/100 over 9k. Not to mention that the guy was planning to move to $5/$10 not up to 50c/$1.

How can you compare lol 180BB vs 540BB yeah thats pretty similar. A bad run wont hugely affect the 540BB guy while the 180BB guys winrate could become breakeven.

Bad runs can run a long time but its way more likely the person is just playing bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

People have bad runs and good runs over thousands of hands sometimes. There also is no way to say that someone winning at one level can jump a couple of levels and nothing will change at all.

-Sent

[flair1239]

Without reading the other replies, I will say this: I do not think you are losing a whole lot by running at 20-22%. On tables where there is no raise and 3-4 people consitently see the flop, many hands are playable from late position.

If you are playing alot of hands from early position, that would be one thing, but if you are playing those hands from late position with 3 or more limpers in front of you, many hands become playable.