QQ, of course an ace flops....

[PantherZ]

Hello folks.

I'm a longtime lurker and first-time poster. This hand is from a Party 2/4 game. I just sat down at the table, so I don't have any knowledge of the opponents at this point.

UTG folds, I raise UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, UTG+2 cold calls, folded to the BB who calls.

Three to the flop for 6 SB's.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, I bet, UTG+2 calls, BB folds.

Two to the turn for 4 BB's.

Turn: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Comments on the turn play -- bet and fold to a raise? check/call? check/fold?

[thirddan]

on the turn i would bet and probably call down if he raised...some players will raise with a J here since gthey figure you don't have an A since there are two on the board...

[spamuell]

I bet and fold to a check-raise from an unknown, I don't think it's a jack (or worse) often enough. You raised pre-flop, they usually expect you to call down here. I would call down if I'd been raising light a lot, or if it appeared that I had been, or if the opponent was very aggressive.

[jordanx]

He might have an ace and be worried about his kicker, since he called the flop bet. Bet and call a raise, but sometimes passive players might just call even if they have an ace.

You have to bet the turn though, because he might be behind and you can't let him take a free card to catch up.

[ecooke]

I'd love a Turn c/r here with a 3-bet fold. If checked through, bet the river regardless.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love a Turn c/r here with a 3-bet fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. For the same amount of bets you can check/call down and see a showdown. What hands are you trying to drive out here? If hero is ahead, the opponent is drawing slim to dead and you want him to call you down.

But I don't think hero should check/call down. I think he needs to bet the turn because any J will happily go to the showdown here.

Spamuell--not sure if you noticed this, but hero wouldn't be facing a check/raise, he would be facing a simple raise after betting out on the turn. At 2/4, I think an unknown will be falsely representing his A often enough for calling down to be profitable.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
on the turn i would bet and probably call down if he raised...some players will raise with a J here since they figure you don't have an A since there are two on the board...

[/ QUOTE ]

Call down to a raise on the turn? With only 2 outs to make a better hand (assuming unwisely trips would make a better hand) when you may be drawing dead already? If you are raised, its because someone is representing an Ace... time to fold, you don't have the odds to call a raise on the turn.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[thirddan]

but i may also be ahead with my QQ...

However, folding is probably the best option against most players, i agree...

[ecooke]

[ QUOTE ]
For the same amount of bets you can check/call down and see a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
Someone besides me should explain why this logic is bogus.

[ QUOTE ]
What hands are you trying to drive out here?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to drive out any hands - I'm trying to trap a J or induce a bluff against that A.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone besides me should explain why this logic is bogus.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm perfectly willing to accept that I might be wrong, but replies like this are just unhelpful. If you think I'm wrong, please explain why.
For the record, I didn't suggest check/calling down, I suggested betting out on the turn.

I see why you would want to checkraise the turn, then fold to a 3-bet. You want to save yourself a bet on the river, because you're 100% sure that you're beat. Meanwhile, when your opponent has a J, he will pay you off with the second-best hand.

However, this assumes 3 things:

1. An opponent holding a J will actually pay off your check-raise.
2. A better hand will almost always 3-bet you on the turn.
3. A turn 3-bet from your opponent will almost always mean you are beaten.

Many times you will play this line out only to see that you scared Ax into calling the turn and then the river. In that case, you lose 3 BB's.
But, if your opponent has a J, and you scare him into folding, you only win 1 BB, and you just got him to fold a hand that had essentially no chance to beat you, and would almost certainly pay you off on the river.
As for #3, I think it is a mistake to rely so heavily on "logical play" from your opponent when heads up at 2/4. Even very passive players will sometimes get crazy heads up. I still think betting out is the best plan here.

[ecooke]

Forgive me about the "bogus logic" statement. In explanation, you should not be thinking about the cheapest way to reach a showdown, but rather the best line with which to win the most money.

[ QUOTE ]
1. An opponent holding a J will actually pay off your check-raise.
2. A better hand will almost always 3-bet you on the turn.
3. A turn 3-bet from your opponent will almost always mean you are beaten.


[/ QUOTE ]
Do others agree with my critic that these assumptions are unreasonable?

[ QUOTE ]
Many times you will play this line out only to see that you scared Ax into calling the turn and then the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Fundamental Theorem of Poker says there is no problem with this series of events.

[ QUOTE ]
But, if your opponent has a J, and you scare him into folding, you only win 1 BB, and you just got him to fold a hand that had essentially no chance to beat you, and would almost certainly pay you off on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]
You make your money when your opponents make mistakes. Give him an opportunity to do so.

[PhatTBoll]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Many times you will play this line out only to see that you scared Ax into calling the turn and then the river.




[/ QUOTE ]

The Fundamental Theorem of Poker says there is no problem with this series of events.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew that your opponent had Ax, would you still checkraise the turn?

[ecooke]

No! But when he calls down that's fine.
Bottom line: Fear of passive play is no reason to play passively yourself.

[PantherZ]

I bet, he raised.

[Shillx]

You are getting 4:1 on a calldown and have little chance to improve. Folding is the play.

The Shill

[jordanx]

Pot is medium size here. On a passive read I would fold to a raise.

Against an unknown or loose player I'd call it down, sometimes opponent is bluff raising here or thinks his jack is unfallible.

[PantherZ]

I folded to the turn raise. I thought this was the best choice against a totally unknown player. If I call the raise, then I'm obviously committing myself to calling the river.

A good read would have made the decision much easier. Against a passive player, I would have folded. Against an aggressive player, I would have been more inclined to call down.

Thanks for the comments.