Omaha 8: Strange scoop

Online $2/4 game, nine-handed.


I pick up AsAd6s5d UTG. Right or wrong, I decided to raise it. One cold-caller behind me and BB come along for the ride as well.


Flop: Q-J-4r, with two backdoor flushes for me. BB bets, I call, CC calls. Is this a poor call btw? Is raising an option, to perhaps clean out my runner-runner low outs and set outs vs KT?


Turn: 6d, giving me a decent low draw, nut flush draw and a pair connecting with the board. BB checks. My move? What's my move if BB bets? Right or wrong (I am an Omaha novice!), I bet. CC drops, BB calls.


River: Offsuit Deuce, giving me a very decent (third nut) low. BB checks. I bet my decent low with a pair of Aces high. I am called and I scoop.


I was a little surprised to be scooping, given that the BB bet out on a flop containing just one low card.


lars

I pick up AsAd6s5d UTG. Right or wrong, I decided to raise it.


Better to raise than to call. You might get tight A3' and A4's to drop.


Turn: 6d, giving me a decent low draw, nut flush draw and a pair connecting with the board. BB checks. My move? What's my move if BB bets? Right or wrong (I am an Omaha novice!), I bet.


I'm not sure here. You're starting to get a hand. Are you betting to make people drop out? or betting to build the pot? If you hit a high diamond, will anyone pay it off? I think this bet may have merit. You may have gotten an eventual 2-pair out of there, setting up your AA for the scoop.


I was a little surprised to be scooping, given that the BB bet out on a flop containing just one low card.


Well, that 2 on the end was a nice card for you. Someone sitting on a hand like A2TJ got his draw dinked, and you got it all.


Interesting hand. I was surprised that an online 2/4 game was so tight.

“I pick up AsAd6s5d UTG. Right or wrong, I decided to raise it.”


Lars - Right or wrong I would raise with this hand UTG in certain situations but not in others. Most of these raising situations would be in tight play situations, where I felt I was not going to get many callers anyway (and therefore probably not get much value for my flush draws), and where I would want to make the field as small as possible, hopefully with every one folding, or as a second choice one-on-one with the blind.


Lets look at the various features of your hand.


The pair of aces is a strong holding, especially if only one opponent sees the flop. With only one opponent, the aces often stand on their own to win the high half of the pot. With two or three opponents the aces will probably not stand on their own for high, but if you catch an ace on the board, your set of aces very well might be good for high, or in a tight game if there is a middle pair on the board, your two pair, for example aces over sevens, might hold up for high. With four or more opponents, you usually will need to make a full house with your aces to have a winner. Thus if the aces are the main feature of your hand, you prefer a small field and if raising before the flop will accomplish this end, then the raise makes sense.


Two nut flush draws is a powerful holding. Even though you won’t make the nut flush often, when you do, you can bet the hand and it will pay off for you. When you don’t make the flush, it’s usually easy to get away from the hand. You obviously prefer as many customers as possible when you do make the nut flush. If raising will serve to limit the field, then raising is not in the best interests of your nut flush draws. You have a dilemma when (1) the pot is huge, (2) you make the nut flush on the flop or the turn, (3) the board pairs on the river and (4) someone who has been limping suddenly comes out betting.


65 is not a good two card holding. You almost need to catch a board with three sixes, three fives, or 432 without a pair, and also without a five or a six. The probability of any of these occuring is very low.


A5 is not a good low in a full game. You need 432 on the board to make the nuts. There is a very low probability of A5 being nut low and also a low probability of A5 winning for low. The probability of A6 winning for low is even lower than that of A5. Note that A6 can never be the nuts for low. If you could get better lows to fold by raising before the flop, then raising before the flop would have merit. But that’s not very realistic in most low limit games.


Thus the hand is a paradox. You’d like to limit the field to give your pair of aces for high and your A56 for low a better chance, but you want as many customers as possible for your nut flush draws. This situation is not at all unusual in Omaha-8. Part of the hand calls out for a limp and part of the hand calls out for a pre-flop raise.


“One cold-caller behind me and BB come along for the ride as well.”


O.K.


“Flop: Q-J-4r, with two backdoor flushes for me. BB bets, I call, CC calls. Is this a poor call btw?”


You missed the flop. Backdoor flushes do not add much expectancy to the hand. Needing runner-runner spade-spade or runner-runner diamond-diamond, you have only about a nine per cent chance of making a flush by the river. I would tend to fold here, unless BB always defends his blind and always comes out betting when the flop has only one low card. And in that case I would tend to raise.


“Is raising an option, to perhaps clean out my runner-runner low outs and set outs vs KT?”


Yes. Even though you missed the flop, there is a good chance you have the best hand at this point and your opponents may fold to your raise. Note that your opponents may have better draws than you at this point. This is a very common situation in Omaha-8, where the person who has the best hand after the flop is unlikely to end up with the best hand on the river. (But this time you did).


“Turn: 6d, giving me a decent low draw, nut flush draw and a pair connecting with the board.”


Whoa! Decent low draw? Hardly! And your pair connecting to the board almost seems a liability! However, you do still have a pair of aces and you do have the nut flush draw.


“BB checks. My move?”


In spite of what I have written above, I’d bet, hoping to steal the pot here or set up a possible steal on the river.


“What's my move if BB bets?”


I think in that case you should call.


“Right or wrong (I am an Omaha novice!), I bet. CC drops, BB calls.”


O.K.


“River: Offsuit Deuce, giving me a very decent (third nut) low.”


Yikes. I’m cringing because you think you have a very decent low. You don’t. Your third nut low, more of an “emergency” low than a “very decent” low, won in this particular hand, but if you continue to think that the third nut low is a “very decent low,” you may be in for some big losses down the road.


“BB checks. I bet my decent low with a pair of Aces high.”


I would bet here too, but it would be because I was hoping BB would fold a hand that might very well have me beaten for high, low, or both.


“I am called and I scoop. I was a little surprised to be scooping, given that the BB bet out on a flop containing just one low card.”


Yes. I agree. Note that BB does not seem to have played the hand well, chasing on the turn and then chasing on the river with a loser.


Just my opinion. I realize you're playing in a 2-4 game and my thinking here would apply more at a slightly higher level (or in low limit tournaments), but it might also apply at the 2-4 level.


Buzz

Buzz,


Excellent analysis, as usual. Looking for a quick sanity check on one small nit.


Seems that our hero's A-5 is 2nd nut low, not third. Also, it's a runner-runner low. Given that, and given that the odds of the nut low being out are reduced by his AA holding, are you still cringing? Yeah, I have problems with calling it "very decent", but I'm willing to let him slide on "decent".


What say ye?


gorilla

Gorilla - You are correct. Lars has endued up with the second nut low. And, considering that low came through the back door and that Lars is one-on-one with his opponent, Lars has ended up with a nice low for the situation. I don't want to quibble between "decent" or "very decent." Either one will do, if you like. (I prefer "lucky" or "opportunistic" as the appropriate adjective).


/images/smile.gif


(Since Lars used "third nut," I did too. I should have immediately seen it was not - but I was thinking along other lines).


Thanks for the correction.


Buzz