Live $10-20 half kill hand, 7 handed

[ChicagoTroy]

Typical online but strange live hand at Harrah's EC last night. The game is close to breaking because a tourney is starting and we're losing players at the must move table. Table is good, when full we were seeing 5-6 players to the flop. None of my opponents are familiar with shorthanded play. The button is too loose preflop and tilting. My increased aggressiveness during a period we were 4-5 handed is irritating him and Kleinstadt1 has recently successfully bluffed and accidentally revealed his hand. He may suspect we're colluding.

Seven handed, I post a $15 half kill UTG+1 and am dealt 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Folded to button who raises (button doesn't know how to play SH), somewhat loose passive BB calls, Kleinstadt folds, I call.

Flop comes 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets out, I raise, button folds, BB calls.

Turn is (9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, I bet, BB calls.

River is 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, I check. BB has J9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and MHING

Kleinstadt thought the LP's having a 9 was obvious, which is why I'm posting the hand. I would have expected a 3-bet (at least) from an experienced short handed player with top pair, but he isn't one. I also didn't expect him to call the turn without one. The fact that this is a kill hand and we're shorthanded affects different players differently.

[NotMitch]

Don't you have a straight?

[AQheartbreak]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you have a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking the same thing. Where I totally understand the play throughout the hand, until the river check, when you make your hand. Are you just being nice to a friend?

[ChicagoTroy]

Flop was the 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, not the 4. I two pair (with the the board's second pair).
Pocket 66
Board (9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)(5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif)(7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop was the 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, not the 4. I two pair (with the the board's second pair).
Pocket 66
Board (9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)(5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif)(7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the BB enough of a loose passive that he wouldnt bet out without at least a 9? Even if he has only a pocket pair on the flop the only ones you beat are 22 and 44. Im not sure you are good very often on the flop. This feels very weak tight but maybe just because I read the results.

[J.R.]

somewhat loose passive BB

I don't know why you are talking about LP having a 9 (you mean the BB?), but when a loose passive player leads into another player and the pfr on a raggedy, disconnected flop, I think there is a very good chance the loose passive player has top pair.

You played the hand well if your read was the BB could be betting a worse hand better than 50% of the time. You are risking 2 BBs to win 5 big bets, plus you will get outdraw sometimes when ahead, so I'd conservatively estimate you need to be good at least 50% of the time, especially when you consider the pfr may have a hand. But is that true of a loose passive on this fairly drawless board?

[ChicagoTroy]

It was hard to tell. He suspects the button is on a steal, I only had to call one bet PF & didn't 3-bet, and I don't know how he is "adjusting" to shorthanded play. In some instances he's too weak, in others not.

This may be too specific a circumstance to have a good discussion, since I can always say, "Yeah but I was there and I don't think he'd do that." Kleinstadt is a solid player in this game and thought I should have folded, but he doesn't play SH so I could (theoretically) say the same thing when he said dump on the flop.

Here was my thought process:

PF: Button's steaming, BB over defends his blinds, I have a pocket pair. I never considered folding, but wouldn't risk a three bet.

Flop: Raggy board. BB bets out, I raise to isoloate him. since Button likely has at least a weak king or ace. Furthermore, I would expect a SH player to 3 bet me if he had top pair, or maybe checkraise, but not bet/call. This may have been a mistake on my part associated with my recent online 6-max play, which is more aggressive.

Turn: He checks, leading me to think he has overcards with a possible flush draw. I bet out, thinking he will fold often enough to the "raise flop, bet turn" routine to make this a profitable play.

River: I don't know what he's doing, but if he was on a flush draw he made it, he may have had top pair and played it weakly, or picked up second pair, or (unlikely) be slowplaying two full house or trip 5's. If I bet, he is almost 100% likely to call in a kill pot any of his possible holdings. So I check behind and hope.

[ChicagoTroy]

Good response, this is more in line with Kleinstadt's thoughts. Mine are now posted in this thread.

Adding to them, I'd run these guys out of some hands recently, winning 4 in a row a (4-handed) few hands earlier. Two I showed down, but two were "raise the flop, bet the turn, and watch the other guy fold" semi-bluffs where the bot was big and I felt confident doing it. I thought it was maybe 30% likely this guy was taking a stand with overcards and a backdoor draw, and that if he in fact had TP he would 3-bet me, or CR the other two of us. The more I think about it, the more this may have been faulty thinking, but we'd only gone shorthanded in the last 10 or so minutes so it was hard to figure out what was going through his head.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
It was hard to tell. He suspects the button is on a steal, I only had to call one bet PF & didn't 3-bet, and I don't know how he is "adjusting" to shorthanded play. In some instances he's too weak, in others not.

This may be too specific a circumstance to have a good discussion, since I can always say, "Yeah but I was there and I don't think he'd do that." Kleinstadt is a solid player in this game and thought I should have folded, but he doesn't play SH so I could (theoretically) say the same thing when he said dump on the flop.

Here was my thought process:

PF: Button's steaming, BB over defends his blinds, I have a pocket pair. I never considered folding, but wouldn't risk a three bet.

Flop: Raggy board. BB bets out, I raise to isoloate him. since Button likely has at least a weak king or ace. Furthermore, I would expect a SH player to 3 bet me if he had top pair, or maybe checkraise, but not bet/call. This may have been a mistake on my part associated with my recent online 6-max play, which is more aggressive.

Turn: He checks, leading me to think he has overcards with a possible flush draw. I bet out, thinking he will fold often enough to the "raise flop, bet turn" routine to make this a profitable play.

River: I don't know what he's doing, but if he was on a flush draw he made it, he may have had top pair and played it weakly, or picked up second pair, or (unlikely) be slowplaying two full house or trip 5's. If I bet, he is almost 100% likely to call in a kill pot any of his possible holdings. So I check behind and hope.

[/ QUOTE ]


OK I get your thinking now. Some comments by street.

PF: Did you think about raising? Were the kill pots playing a lot tighter? Yeah no way do you fold to the button raise, and 3 betting doesnt seem to do much with BB coming along.

Flop: I like it as long as BB is isnt the type of loose passive I feared in my reply. What do you do if the button 3 bets?

Turn: Given the new info on the BB this is fine, I assume you are folding a raise?

River: TOP 101, easiest street by far. I cant imagine him folding anything you beat.

[ChicagoTroy]

Good questions, follow ups.

PF, No, I wouldn't 3-bet because of the reasonable possibility that button has a) a big hand or b) may be tilting enough to cap out of spite, and then I don't know where the hell I am, except likely heads up with a small middle pair against a PF capper with position on me.

Flop, I will fold to a 3-bet.

Turn, I will fold to a check raise.

River, I would be very surprised if he bet out, attribute it to a very badly played big hand, and fold. Since the trips/flush/boat possibilies are out there, I won't screw around here and risk running into a checkraise.

[bugstud]

still really curious why you didn't open raise with half of your raise posted already.

[ChicagoTroy]

Perhaps I should have. I don't have a ton of experience in hands involving posted kills and straddles. There was enough going on in the hand that was unfamiliar that I made what I consider a "default" play.

Help me out, where is the advantage to putting in an additional $30 vs. $15, when I'm out of position against difficult-to-read hands (due to their position & the current nature of the game)?

[bugstud]

well, it costs you $15 to raise here., and you might steal the $15 you had to post plus the $15 in blind money. If it were a full ten person table I'd check, but it being 7 handed, having half my money in I'd raise 66 UTG+1 as opposed to check.

[ChicagoTroy]

[ QUOTE ]
well, it costs you $15 to raise here., and you might steal the $15 you had to post plus the $15 in blind money. If it were a full ten person table I'd check, but it being 7 handed, having half my money in I'd raise 66 UTG+1 as opposed to check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, it costs $30 more. I didn't get to check; it had already been raised by the button. If the button called and the BB checked, I definitely would have raised.

I think I follow your thinking, though.

[bugstud]

If it's 7 handed, you're UTG+1, how is the button raising before you act?

[ChicagoTroy]

By being stoopid. Sorry, I got it in my head I was last to act with the kill. Not so. I should stop replying to posts before 10:00 a.m.

Early to act seven handed I would expect at least 2 callers with a preflop raise. Being out of position and having to post a another kill if I win anyway, it seemed more logical to see the flop cheap if possible. Most players were open limping, even shorthanded.