View Full Version : Stupid Preflop Question
sthief09
11-09-2004, 06:54 AM
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.
can I do that? no reads except that the table was pretty loose. I feel like that could be bad because the 3-bettor almost always has me dominated. I figured 1 SB was a worthwhile investment because either I (1) get lots of dead money in the pot, or (2) get a multiway pot with good equity
SCfuji
11-09-2004, 06:56 AM
1) no such thing as stupid questions duhduh.
2) no reads i would be hesitant to do this but at least you have position on him and you are SOOOTED. but i would proceed with caution because there is a big chance that you are behind.
bernie
11-09-2004, 06:56 AM
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can I do that?
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Why not? You're likely behind, but what the hell.
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no reads
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Par for the SS forum.
b
sthief09
11-09-2004, 06:59 AM
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1) no such thing as stupid questions duhduh.
2) no reads i would be hesitant to do this but at least you have position on him and you are SOOOTED. but i would proceed with caution because there is a big chance that you are behind.
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oh I proceeded with caution. I raised the SB on the flop flop, everyone, then checked the turn, and it got checked through. I won with a pair of kings somehow. it was so ugly that I'm not going to post it
I wouldn´t, SB has a strong hand here very often. Probably JJ,AK or better, which all dominates you.
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Why not? You're likely behind, but what the hell.
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Great answer!!
sthief09
11-09-2004, 07:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
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no reads
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Par for the SS forum.
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people seem to be getting better here with giving reads. I'm not though...
I still think a lot of the game is knowing what to do in "typical" situations. including reads makes the hand very specific and more difficult to apply to more general situations.
thirddan
11-09-2004, 07:01 AM
you can do whatever you like, include capping with a likely dominated/marginal hand...but i wouldn't do it /images/graemlins/smile.gif
sthief09
11-09-2004, 07:02 AM
was he being sarcastic? I didn't think so at first but now I'm confused
SCfuji
11-09-2004, 07:02 AM
yeah. i prefer the what would you do most of the time sort of questions...
No.
What was that line....for a smart kid you're pretty dumb Josh.
sthief09
11-09-2004, 07:04 AM
KJs isn't marginal, being dominated in multiway pots with good multiway hands isn't so bad, and any dead money I can get into the pot makes being dominated hurt less.
sthief09
11-09-2004, 07:04 AM
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No.
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wait, are you being sarcastic now?
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wait, are you being sarcastic now?
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Are you being sarcastic by asking that?
What's the over/under on how long we could do this?
thirddan
11-09-2004, 07:07 AM
KJ suited many not be marginal like QT is marginal, but it aint great when you get 3bet by somebody in the SB...Also, you are unlikely to get dead money into the pot since most players that call two cold once aren't folding when its two more after the cap...While being dominated is not as big of a factor in mulitway pots it is still something to be concerned with, since you will most likely end up calling down and paying off if you make TP with either of your cards since the pot is so huge...
thirddan
11-09-2004, 07:08 AM
you can stop now... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
daveymck
11-09-2004, 07:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no reads
[/ QUOTE ]
Par for the SS forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
people seem to be getting better here with giving reads. I'm not though...
I still think a lot of the game is knowing what to do in "typical" situations. including reads makes the hand very specific and more difficult to apply to more general situations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Too a point I agree, but I believe at 5/10 (and it helps you game below that) having reads is more important. If for example he is one of the vp60 pfr 20 players that are not that uncommon at 5/10 then yes I think your p/f platy isnt too bad. If however is is a TAG in the 14/4 type category also prevelant up there then I beleive its a bad play.
As a standard play I think its bad.
Scrub that I was cross referencing 2 posts.
I don't like the cap though.
bernie
11-09-2004, 07:12 AM
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I still think a lot of the game is knowing what to do in "typical" situations
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What do most opponents 'typically' 3 bet out of the sb that KJs is ahead of?
However, the pot will be 5 way, so it's not quite as bad. No one is folding behind for the cap. Your position for jamming a draw sucks though.
b
thirddan
11-09-2004, 07:13 AM
why would you not cap with QQ/KK/AA?
if the reason is so that you can raise SB on the flop, do you think that is worth the extra money that would go in preflop since you won't be protecting your hand since the pot is so big?
sthief09
11-09-2004, 07:13 AM
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 16.1791 % [ 15.29 00.89 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AQo-A8o, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 16.2316 % [ 15.35 00.88 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T8s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-A8o, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 16.2469 % [ 15.39 00.85 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T8s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A8o, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 33.1361 % [ 32.53 00.61 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AQs, AKo }
Hand 5: 18.2063 % [ 17.27 00.94 ] { KcJc }
so if everyone calls, it's a mistake. if one cold-caller folds, I've created 2 SB of dead money. I'm too tired to think about the math, but this is my equity. it's gone down in proportion to the number of players, but there's an extra half player in the pot
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 19.0190 % [ 18.11 00.91 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AQo-A8o, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 19.0016 % [ 18.13 00.88 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T8s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A8o, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 40.7540 % [ 40.10 00.66 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AQs, AKo }
Hand 5: 21.2254 % [ 20.39 00.84 ] { KcJc }
[ QUOTE ]
why would you not cap with QQ/KK/AA?
if the reason is so that you can raise SB on the flop, do you think that is worth the extra money that would go in preflop since you won't be protecting your hand since the pot is so big?
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No the reason was I just looked at another post and forgot this wasn't headsup.
sthief09
11-09-2004, 07:16 AM
"typically" I'm going to need a straight or a flush. somehow the flop came king high and he folded the river after the turn got checked through (I'm a fish), so he must've had crap (the second highest card was a 9). I was banking on someone folding, but if they're loose enough to cold call they'll call for another 2.
helpmeout
11-09-2004, 07:33 AM
No you cant 3bet weak raising hands like KJs.
Multiway value isnt much good when the trash hands fold on the flop and you are heads up against AK or such.
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No you cant 3bet weak raising hands like KJs.
Multiway value isnt much good when the trash hands fold on the flop and you are heads up against AK or such.
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Whether the play is right or wrong, what you just said is nonsense.
This doesn't make sense. Not a lot of 5 way capped hands fold on the flop.
EDIT: oops, I guess Tosh beat me to it.
sthief09
11-09-2004, 07:57 AM
Multiway value isnt much good when the trash hands fold on the flop and you are heads up against AK or such.
I'll take my KJs against AK headsup in a 20 SB pot. Do you see why? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
JTG51
11-09-2004, 08:09 AM
I still think a lot of the game is knowing what to do in "typical" situations.
I agree. I think all of the complaining about not supplying reads here is silly. Reads are great, but like it or not, you're forced to make decisions against unknown players all the time in poker.
helpmeout
11-09-2004, 08:15 AM
Even though you are likely to have the second best hand the fact that there is so much dead money in the pot makes it +EV.
So if you only beat AK or whatever SB has say 30% of the time it is still a good bet.
You will likely have odds to draw out on him.
I guess the added value of deception is also good as well as having position on SB.
sthief09
11-09-2004, 08:25 AM
I wasn't commenting on whether I was right or wrong in capping. Apparently I was wrong. All I was saying is if the cold callers all fold with their "trash hands" then it's a great situation, not a bad one.
bernie
11-09-2004, 05:18 PM
I don't think this hand requires much of a read to do.
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I think all of the complaining about not supplying reads here is silly. Reads are great, but like it or not, you're forced to make decisions against unknown players all the time in poker
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Yes, especially when one doesn't pay attention to the last 3 orbits. Reads on players silly? What other skills do you think are silly? Imagine life without PT.
b
JTG51
11-09-2004, 05:21 PM
Reads on players silly? What other skills do you think are silly?
Good one bernie. Now go back and read my post again and honestly tell me that you think I said reads are silly.
bernie
11-09-2004, 05:46 PM
Yes, i was exaggerating a bit.
I don't think complaining about lack of reads is silly. I think it should wake some up to actually doing it. Not relying on PT because they've only played 30 hands with the guy. I remember 1 post awhile back where a guy mentioned he didnt think his 200 hands with a guy was a big enough sample size in PT for a decent read. I think the skill of just getting reads is greatly lacking on the forum. Which is normal i guess, but i can keep hoping. I mean, c'mon. Not even a general description of a table texture? Please.
I think developing reads on players is becoming a very underdeveloped skill as too many rely on PT. Even for obvious reads. I think for many PT is a huge crutch that can hamper their games in the longrun. Especially if they aspire to play in a live game.
b
sexypanda
11-09-2004, 05:47 PM
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Reads on players silly? What other skills do you think are silly?
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Juggling
JTG51
11-09-2004, 05:53 PM
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Reads on players silly? What other skills do you think are silly?
[/ QUOTE ]
Juggling
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No way. Juggling is cool.
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